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Do the authors of the NT consider Genesis a literal book of the Bible?

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
So you have been corrected after all... ;)

Never corrected concerning the actual references from th eNT concerning the literal interpretation of Genesis and Pentateuch concerning Adam and Eve, Noah and the Arc nor Moses




They work either way, and we have nothing else to go on.

On what grounds should I accept what you say is definitely true, rather than it simply being you begging the question?

Absolutely true? Bogus assertion. I have specifically cited the text as to what they believed.

The fallacy of begging the question occurs when an argument's premises assume the truth of the conclusion, instead of supporting it. In other words, you assume without proof the stand/position, or a significant part of the stand, that is in question.

Begging the Question

Not an argument from ignorance, because I am only basing my argument on specific text. You are arguing from ignorance basing your argument on unknowns, which cannot be found in the text of the NT.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Please explain to me how this is a parable.
By definition
Definition of PARABLE

: a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principlethe Biblical parable of the Good Samaritan

As you cited a parable:

"Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine
For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
By definition
Definition of PARABLE

: a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principlethe Biblical parable of the Good Samaritan
What's fictitious about what Paul has written?

He's citing a law from the Torah and re-interpreting the meaning. There's nothing fictional here.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
He is specifically describing what he belief=ves concerning Genesis and the Pentateuch.
Yes, he believes in a different interpretation of the oxen being muzzled, and is applying it to the work of church elders and giving the elders their due.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Yes, he believes in a different interpretation of the oxen being muzzled, and is applying it to the work of church elders and giving the elders their due.

It is nonetheless a parable as defined and not related to the topic of the thread.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
What's fictitious about what Paul has written?

He's citing a law from the Torah and re-interpreting the meaning. There's nothing fictional here.

He cites a parable justifying a law of the Torah. A parable is not considered either true nor fiction is only a well known parable in the culture of Judaism. Not related to the topic of the thread concerning the belief in in a literal interpretation of Genesis, for example concerning Adam and Eve and Noah's flood.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
It is nonetheless a parable as defined and not related to the topic of the thread.
It's not a story.

Here is the law: You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain. (Deuteronomy 25:4) This is literally applied to oxen. It's a law about oxen.

Here is what Paul says: Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honour, especially those who labour in preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, “The labourer deserves his wages.” (1 Tim 5).

Paul is using this verse to apply it to the church elders.

There's no parable here.
 
Last edited:

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
@shunyadragon

More on the oxen verse...

1 Corinthians 9:9-11,

For it is written in the Law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain.” Is it for oxen that God is concerned? Does he not certainly speak for our sake? It was written for our sake, because the ploughman should plough in hope and the thresher thresh in hope of sharing in the crop. If we have sown spiritual things among you, is it too much if we reap material things from you?
 
I have specifically cited the text as to what they believed.

And I have specifically pointed out the same passages work equally well with an allegorical reading.

Not an argument from ignorance, because I am only basing my argument on specific text. You are arguing from ignorance basing your argument on unknowns, which cannot be found in the text of the NT.

I said you are begging the question, not arguing from ignorance. I am not arguing from ignorance either as I'm saying the evidence is ambiguous.

You simply assert the reference was literal statement of literal truth because the authors believed in a literal Genesis.

That's begging the question.

Why should we accept that your interpretation is correct when it is based on a logically fallacious argument?



Genesis:

Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is more than I can bear. 14 Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.”

To me this makes more sense if you interpret Adam as being figuratively the first man as it seems to assume a world populated with other people, not simply the descendants of Adam and Eve.

Again, I could not state this as definitive fact as it is ambiguous like your example.

When you take an ambiguous text then state that it is best to interpret without recourse to genre, convention, historical context, nuance, or any other factor and simply interpret it in a naive, literalist manner what do you actually expect to uncover?

What evidence would you actually expect to see if they did interpret it, at least in part, allegorically?
 
@shunyadragon

More on the oxen verse...

1 Corinthians 9:9-11,

For it is written in the Law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain.” Is it for oxen that God is concerned? Does he not certainly speak for our sake? It was written for our sake, because the ploughman should plough in hope and the thresher thresh in hope of sharing in the crop. If we have sown spiritual things among you, is it too much if we reap material things from you?

 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
@shunyadragon

More on the oxen verse...

1 Corinthians 9:9-11,

For it is written in the Law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain.” Is it for oxen that God is concerned? Does he not certainly speak for our sake? It was written for our sake, because the ploughman should plough in hope and the thresher thresh in hope of sharing in the crop. If we have sown spiritual things among you, is it too much if we reap material things from you?

So what? This still involves a parable, and NOT relevant to the subject of the thread,
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
So what? This still involves a parable, and NOT relevant to the subject of the thread,
Shunya, the verse about oxen IS NOT A PARABLE.

It is a law the Israelites literally apply to oxen. They are not allowed to muzzle their working oxen.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
It's not a story.

Here is the law: You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain. (Deuteronomy 25:4) This is literally applied to oxen. It's a law about oxen.

Here is what Paul says: Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honour, especially those who labour in preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, “The labourer deserves his wages.” (1 Tim 5).

Paul is using this verse to apply it to the church elders.

There's no parable here.

Citing a law is not remotely relevant to the subject of the thread.

Still waiting for relevant citations from the NT concerning Genesis, and subjects llike Adam and Eve and Noah and the arc.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
@shunyadragon

I think I get what you're trying to do here. You're trying to say that it's a parable to get out of the fact that Paul is not interpreting the Torah literally here.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
Siting a law is not remotely relevant to the subject of the thread.

Still waiting for relevant citations from the NT concerning Genesis, and subjects llike Adam and Eve and Noah and the arc.
You also said from the Pentateuch. This law is in the Pentateuch and it is a literal law Paul interprets figuratively.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
You also said from the Pentateuch. This law is in the Pentateuch and it is a literal law Paul interprets figuratively.

Not the subject of the thread. Paul simply cited the law as an example. The topic involves a literal Genesis for example Adam and Eve and Noah and the Arc, which you have failed to respond to.

Paul was a JEw and believed in the Law of the Torah. So what????
 
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