Do the authors of the NT consider Genesis a literal book of the Bible?

[shunyadragon]

You do realise the NT has at least 9 different authors, right? Are you seriously suggesting they all had the exact same view when they differ so sharply in other things?

Yes the NT has at least 9 or possibly more authors and those who edited, redacted and compiled the latest versions of what we call the NT. It still remains that ALL the text and citations from the NT consider Genesis and the stories of Creation, Adam and Eve, Noah, and Moses Exodus as literal history regardless of who the authors were,. .

 

[Augustus]

All the references I gave were specifically stated in the text that the writer believed to be true, Of course the geneology was not accurate, but the writer believed it to be true, and Jesus Christ was a desebdebt if a real person, 'the first human as described in text cited.

I do not argue that the text cited is true or not, but does reflect what the authors believed to be true. Neither the others nor yo have cited anything in the text that would support your assertions that the main points of Genesis auch as Adam and Eve, the Fall and Noah were in any way allegorical from the perspective of the authors who considered them historical faacts.

You claimed:

he view toward Genesis and the Pentateuch of the day were pretty much universally considered literal

I provided scholarly evidence this is false, and that contemporaries of Jesus and Paul did indeed interpret scripture allegorically. You ignored it and so are basing your entire argument on a false premise.

You are still ignoring it because it undermines your entire argument.

Still waiting for references from the NT to support your assertions instead of rambling rhetoric.

This exactly illustrates to why your fallacious reasoning on this issue.

If your only argument is "X referred to a genealogy/Adam/etc, thus the only possible interpretation of this is that he took it to be 100% literally true and if he didn't take it to be 100% literally true he would have made a direct announcement about how it was allegorical" then you have no interest in the topic beyond a simple assertion of your own opinion that derives largely from your own prejudices.

Never understood why people start threads when they have no interest in actually learning anything about the topic.

 

[shunyadragon]

You claimed:

No as ALL the citations from the NT documented the view that the authors believed that Genesis is literal history.

I provided scholarly evidence this is false, and that contemporaries of Jesus and Paul did indeed interpret scripture allegorically. You ignored it and so are basing your entire argument on a false premise.

NO, you have presented absolutely no citations from the NT text to support your assertions.

You only cited later references to Church Fathers, which is OFF TOPIC for this thread as specified in the opening post.

100% is not the issue. The citations documented specifically that the authors believed that Adam was the first human Created by God and Jesus Christ is a descendent of Adam the real first human.

Still waiting for references from the NT to support your assertions instead of rambling rhetoric.

 

[Augustus]

The genealogies are tampered with to make them fit so many generations. They're a literary device. Plus the two accounts don't match and are going for different things. One has Jesus be the son of Joseph the son of Jacob, to tie it back to Genesis, where the other hasn't - because Luke wasn't going for that kind of thing.

Now, now, don't be silly. The only reason ancient people ever wrote stuff was that they considered it a 100% literally true super fact unless they clearly stated otherwise. There is no room for doubt or ambiguity.

Everyone knows it is a scientific fact that is how ancient people wrote. Anyone who says otherwise is an undercover, secret apologist.

If Paul had taken it allegorically you would find stuff like:

2 Corinthians 3:98 "OMG Adam didn't, like, actually exist obvs, but it's a, ya know, totally kewl story bro that totally tells us what a dude God is. Adam was in this Garden of Eden place with this Eve chick, like, and it was totally like the best Centre Parcs you can imagine, all inclusive and everything yo..."

 

[Augustus]

You only cited later references to Church Fathers, which is OFF TOPIC for this thread as specified in the opening post.

You've already been corrected on this THREE times.

Philo was neither a Christian nor a "later church father". He was a Jew and a contemporary of Jesus and Paul who proves that some contemporaries of Jesus and Paul did indeed interpret scripture allegorically.

Do you understand why this is important and definitely not "off topic"?

 

[Rival]

Now, now, don't be silly. The only reason ancient people ever wrote stuff was that they considered it a 100% literally true super fact unless they clearly stated otherwise. There is no room for doubt or ambiguity.

Everyone knows it is a scientific fact that is how ancient people wrote. Anyone who says otherwise is an undercover, secret apologist.

If Paul had taken it allegorically you would find stuff like:

2 Corinthians 3:98 "OMG Adam didn't, like, actually exist obvs, but it's a, ya know, totally kewl story bro that totally tells us what a dude God is. Adam was in this Garden of Eden place with this Eve chick, like, and it was totally like the best Centre Parcs you can imagine, all inclusive and everything yo..."

So we have several literally true supafax such as:

1. Jesus rode both one *** and two asses into Jerusalem.
2. 2 Marys, 3 Marys, 2 Marys and Joanna, and just Mary Magdalene found the empty tomb.
3. Jesus was crucified twice, once before Passover and once on Passover.
4. Jesus went to the Galilee after he was raised, and at the same time he went to Jerusalem.
5. Paul must have had several visions of Jesus.
6. There were both 1 angel and 2 angels at the empty tomb.

Supafax where the authors all share ONE VIEW because they're basing it on things they all interpret the EXACT SAME WAY.

 

[Rival]

Philo Judaeus, also called Philo of Alexandria, (born 15–10 BCE, Alexandria—died 45–50 CE, Alexandria), Greek-speaking Jewish philosopher, the most important representative of Hellenistic Judaism.

Philo Judaeus | Jewish philosopher | Britannica

 

[shunyadragon]

You've already been corrected on this THREE times.

I have been corrected xero times.

Philo was neither a Christian nor a "later church father". He was a Jew and a contemporary of Jesus and Paul who proves that some contemporaries of Jesus and Paul did indeed interpret scripture allegorically.

Do you understand why this is important and definitely not "off topic"?

Yes the topic was the view of the authors of the NT ONLY concerning whether the Genesis and the Pentateuch represented a literal history. The opening post and later posts were the views of the Church Fathers and other early scholars would be considered in a later thread.

It may be important to you, bit to addressed in the next thread. Side note to be addressed in the next thread: By the way Origen was considered a heretic and never accepted by either the Roman Church nor any of the Protestant Churches.

Still waiting for references from the NT to support your assertions instead of rambling rhetoric.

 

[shunyadragon]

So we have several literally true supafax such as:

1. Jesus rode both one *** and two asses into Jerusalem.
2. 2 Marys, 3 Marys, 2 Marys and Joanna, and just Mary Magdalene found the empty tomb.
3. Jesus was crucified twice, once before Passover and once on Passover.
4. Jesus went to the Galilee after he was raised, and at the same time he went to Jerusalem.
5. Paul must have had several visions of Jesus.
6. There were both 1 angel and 2 angels at the empty tomb.

Supafax where the authors all share ONE VIEW because they're basing it on things they all interpret the EXACT SAME WAY.

Yes there are numerous minor and some significant contradictions in the text of th eNT, but none of the above addresses the fact that the authors of the NT considered Genesis and the Pentateuch were literal history.

 

[Rival]

Yes there are numerous minor and some significant contradictions in the text of th eNT, but none of the above addresses the fact that the authors of the NT considered Genesis and the Pentateuch were literal history.

You missed my point, as usual.

 

[Rival]

I have been corrected xero times.

Do you know who Philo was?

 

[Rival]

Never understood why people start threads when they have no interest in actually learning anything about the topic.

"Look how bad/stupid x religion is, mine's better."

 

[Augustus]

Do you know who Philo was?

kind of pastry, innit...

 

[Rival]

kind of pastry, innit...

Sounds flaky to me. You can't just chouxhorn him in there and puff him all up. You can't just shortcrust these things.

 

[shunyadragon]

Philo Judaeus, also called Philo of Alexandria, (born 15–10 BCE, Alexandria—died 45–50 CE, Alexandria), Greek-speaking Jewish philosopher, the most important representative of Hellenistic Judaism.

Philo Judaeus | Jewish philosopher | Britannica

NOIT THE TOPIC OF THE THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Still waiting for references from the NT to support your assertions instead of rambling rhetoric.

 

[shunyadragon]

Do you know who Philo was?

Yes, but not the topic of the thread.

To add, Philo was a Jewish philosopher, and not Christian, nor did his views ever reflected in the NT, and the authors of the NT, nor was he accepted by later Church orthodoxy of the Roman nor Protestant Churches,

Still waiting for references from the NT to support your assertions instead of rambling rhetoric.

 

[Rival]

NOIT THE TOPIC OF THE THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Still waiting for references from the NT to support your assertions instead of rambling rhetoric.

Do you not accept that we don't know what the NT authors believed about Genesis or the rest of the Torah and can only make educated guesses?

I mean, seriously, what do you expect anyone to say? What kind of arguments are you looking for?

 

[Rival]

Here's Paul on this verse:

Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And the labourer is worthy of his reward.

And he's not applying it to literal oxen. He's saying give the elders their due for their work.

 

[shunyadragon]

Do you not accept that we don't know what the NT authors believed about Genesis or the rest of the Torah and can only make educated guesses?

I mean, seriously, what do you expect anyone to say? What kind of arguments are you looking for?

Citations from the NT that support your assertions. None exist.

I mean seriously, The text of th eNT reflects that the authors specifically believed in the literal interpretation of Genesis including Creation, literal Adam and Eve, the Fall, Noah and th flood, and Moses Exodus.

Still waiting for references from the NT to support your assertions instead of rambling rhetoric.

 

[Rival]

Yes, but not the topic of the thread.

To add, Philo was a Jewish philosopher, and not Christian, nor did his views ever reflected in the NT, and the authors of the NT, nor was he accepted by later Church orthodoxy of the Roman nor Protestant Churches,

Still waiting for references from the NT to support your assertions instead of rambling rhetoric.

Wot.

That isn't what either of us were saying.

We're saying Philo lived during the era the NT was written and his writings influenced Hellenistic Jewish thought. The writers of the NT were Hellenistic Jews.

Can you honestly not see the link here?