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What causes people to choose what they choose?

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
All I was saying is that I believe that God has perfect foreknowledge of the future, so God knows everything that will ever happen before it happens.
God is certainly able to design an amazing fantastic Universe that would unfold precisely how He wants, in every tiny detail, forever.... Like perfect clockwork of vast intricacy.

But He did not.

He did not make that kind of clockwork Universe, it seems according to the common bible and so far as we can best estimate so far in physics

(Here's a non technical article to lay that out: But Is Determinism True?)

What we read in the common bible is that we surprised God more than a few times.
 
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halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
I do not believe that we can ever surprise an all-knowing God so I have to conclude that the Bible is either incorrect or anthropomorphic or both.
Consider -- God chose to make us like Himself

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image...

John 10:34 Jesus replied, "Is it not written in your Law: 'I have said you are gods'?

We are actually like God in key ways -- not just slightly, but in profound ways.

Ergo, we are not at all like a rigid robot, unable to do anything except an expected and predetermined program.

Instead, we can surprise, because He made us able to do so. You are able to choose things that are not predetermined.

That means some choices you will choose in the future aren't as if set in stone. And don't exist yet.

Some things you will choose haven't yet come into existence in any sense.

Even total omniscience doesn't reveal what does not exist.

(The idea a future already exists that can be jumped into with sufficient technology/God like ability is more a fantasy/science fiction style story idea, not real.)
 
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muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
(The idea a future already exists that can be jumped into with sufficient technology/God like ability is more a fantasy/science fiction style story idea, not real.)
It is not real to us, due to our perception of time.

It is just as odd to assume that G-d is subject to time and space like we are .. as He created this physical universe.
G-d is a lot more complex than imagining "a perfect person" in the sky etc. G-d is of infinite nature, and he is responsible for an endless amount of souls.
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
It is not real to us, due to our perception of time.

It is just as odd to assume that G-d is subject to time and space like we are .. as He created this physical universe.
G-d is a lot more complex than imagining "a perfect person" in the sky etc. G-d is of infinite nature, and he is responsible for an endless amount of souls.
Yes, but, still, the idea that the future already exists and can be jumped into even by God (who can do anything), is still actually a modern science fiction/fantasy style device (I think the first such story was created in about 1881). It's a fantasy idea, instead of real.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Unless, as we read in the common Bible, He does not always know what we will choose.

(Ergo, which must mean He intentionally created us to be unpredictable, by His design.)

I can think of this occasion with Abraham . But I figure that is does not necessarily show that God does not know, but shows that God chooses to at times to just go through time with us and not to look at every little detail of the future even when He can, or something like that.
Genesis 22:12“Do not lay a hand on the boy or do anything to him,” said the angel, “for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your only son from me.”
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Hi Brain, closely related to all of these discussions is the commonplace idea many have that we are in a Universe where the future will play out in a predetermined way, a 'Clockwork Universe.'

Which is a crucial thing to just assume. And often implicit in any discussion....

I have a background in physics, and tend to use physics terms to explain why modern physics suggests strongly we are not in a deterministic Universe. (not in a clockwork Universe)

But I think it will be good to have a link to explain without much physics terminology, without jargon:

But Is Determinism True?

It is interesting to see that indeterminism is seen as reality in science given the randomness of some things. (whether that means that other things are affected by that randomness in some areas is probably another question)
My view of God knowing the future is not that God predicts it based on determinism but that God is not governed by time and so can see what will take place in any part of the future if He so chooses to look.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Yes, but, still, the idea that the future already exists and can be jumped into even by God (who can do anything), is still actually a modern science fiction/fantasy style device (I think the first such story was created in about 1881). It's a fantasy idea, instead of real.

I had not heard that idea that the future already exists before and heard it from @Policy on this thread I think. I wondered where it came from.
I imagine the idea that time is not linear could be an idea that would foster ideas like that.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
I had not heard that idea that the future already exists before and heard it from @Policy on this thread I think. I wondered where it came from.
I imagine the idea that time is not linear could be an idea that would foster ideas like that.
It's reaches back to ancient Greek philosophers such as Heraclitus. Currently known as the B-Theory of Time. The first I heard time I heard it was from a Christian apologist back in the 80s. Specifically, that to God there is no past, present, or future. That he is eternal and for him all times and all places are one because he is necessarily timeless, existing everywhere and everwhen.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
That is the thing that you are claiming is true. Can you demonstrate that it is true?

I could say to look at your own choices and see if they are not your choices.
But really what I "claim" is what I believe and am trying to show that God knowing the future does not bring in a contradiction into us still choosing things.

Perhaps disingenuous was the wrong word. You are aggressively assuming your conclusion.

As I said, I'm not proving my conclusions, just stating my beliefs as opposed to an alternative belief, such as the argument about God's omniscience meaning we cannot have self determination and trying to be logical in showing the "no choice" argument is nonsense.

Circular argument. You are assuming your conclusion.

Not really because the argument for no choice actually says that we do choose between alternatives. (It says we cannot choose anything else except what God wants and so is saying that we do choose) So the argument is self contradictory and I was trying to point that out.


That would mean that God's omniscience has nothing to do with it. But as I said, that is using your logic. So I guess that means you are consistent in seeing the universe as pre determined. I just don't see that pre determinism as applying to creatures who actually choose one path or another. That is something that messes up any determinism in the universe.
I just got an article from @halbhh which you may or may not find interesting.
But Is Determinism True?

Wow. That is a really interesting sentence. :) I like it. And I think I agree.

I agree. In such a universe, the cause (God) of any effect would be unavailable to us. Organized events and objects would appear (to us) to occur spontaneously.

Aside: I think that if we lived in such a universe I would be more likely to believe that a god existed.

What I was saying is that if God could be outside of time and just view it and what happens, that would not take away and lack of causal chains in the universe. If there are none, then there would continue to be none and randomness would still rule even though God could see it and know what would happen.
This is the same with creatures who choose freely. God can view what they will do and not alter their free choice.
It is not that God has created a universe to be a certain way, it is that God has seen what will happen and allows that universe to exist,,,,,,,,,,,,, the universe where free will exists. That's an important distinction imo.

Maybe I misunderstand your point, but your illustration seems to support my position. You proposed a universe that had no apparent cause and effect, right? Whereupon if there were a God who created and knew all of the events in that universe, that the causal chaos would only be apparent, not actual. I think that is what you were saying. Please correct me if I misunderstand.

Yes, you misunderstood.
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I did not mean that the lack of causal chains would only be apparent, I meant that God being able to see the future from without, of a universe without causal chains, would not change the fact that there were no causal chains.
Similarly if God sees from without, what we freely choose, that does not change the fact that we freely choose.

And I am saying that there never was an autonomous universe. That such a thing never existed..

If you say that, then I guess the argument about God's omniscience stopping us from being able to freely choose does not apply to you. You are saying that we have never been able to freely choose in the first place. Is that right?
If so, why do you think that?
If I do not answer for a couple of days it is because I will be away, apart from the fact that I am slack of course.
 

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Brian2

Veteran Member
It's reaches back to ancient Greek philosophers such as Heraclitus. Currently known as the B-Theory of Time. The first I heard time I heard it was from a Christian apologist back in the 80s. Specifically, that to God there is no past, present, or future. That he is eternal and for him all times and all places are one because he is necessarily timeless, existing everywhere and everwhen.

Yes I have heard that about God also, probably from apologist ideas.
I have a problem with God being in the future when the future has not already happened however.
Hence God could say to Abraham when He stopped him from killing Isaac, that now He knew.................( Genesis 22:12 )
That would leave God being able to see the future without actually being there until it arrives.
But really all this talk about time and how God can see the future is a bit beyond my pay rate.
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
It is interesting to see that indeterminism is seen as reality in science given the randomness of some things. (whether that means that other things are affected by that randomness in some areas is probably another question)
My view of God knowing the future is not that God predicts it based on determinism but that God is not governed by time and so can see what will take place in any part of the future if He so chooses to look.

There are many instances in scripture of us doing what God did not foresee (because He made us like Himself, with true agency). Let's look at one.

Before the Flood:
5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”

Another:
Jeremiah 19:5 They have built high places to Baal on which to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal--something I never commanded or mentioned, nor did it even enter My mind.

Or would the New Testament be even more decisive to help show it? --
Luke 8:45 "Who touched Me?" Jesus asked. But they all denied it. "Master," said Peter, "the people are crowding and pressing against You."

==> All commandments God gives to us in scripture only make sense if we can choose to do them. Ergo, we are able to choose what is not already determined ahead of time(!)....

Or ask if you want additional examples, please.

But God does know the future (!).

(did I just surprise you?)

This way -- He has chosen certain things to bring about and He surely will bring them about -- they are therefore predetermined! And He knows them ahead of time.

Let's look at how --

Isaiah 46 is such a great chapter to give us the precise way God accomplishes the prophecies He has chosen to "bring about". How He intervenes with agents to work to "fulfill" what He wants to be an outcome.

“Remember this, keep it in mind, take it to heart, you rebels. Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.

I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.’

From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to
fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do."

Isaiah 46 NIV

God intervenes as much as needed, bringing in agents to accomplish His goals, until they are accomplished.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
There are very many instances of the kind I referred to, and here's one:

5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”
I don't believe those verses represent God's thoughts or feelings. I think they are anthropomorphic. For one thing, even if God spoke to Isaiah, the Old Testament was not written by the prophet Isaiah, it was written by unnamed authors. I often wonder why Christians would believe that these are the actual Words of God. :confused:


I believe that God is all-knowing so God knows everything that has ever happened and everything that will ever happen on this earth. God cannot be caught by surprise, only humans are caught by surprise!

Moreover, I believe that God is infallible so God cannot have made a mistake in creating man.
Maybe this was just a way for the authors of Isaiah to convey to humans how much they screwed up. ;)
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
I don't believe those verses represent God's thoughts or feelings. I think they are anthropomorphic. For one thing, even if God spoke to Isaiah, the Old Testament was not written by the prophet Isaiah, it was written by unnamed authors. I often wonder why Christians would believe that these are the actual Words of God. :confused:


I believe that God is all-knowing so God knows everything that has ever happened and everything that will ever happen on this earth. God cannot be caught by surprise, only humans are caught by surprise!

Moreover, I believe that God is infallible so God cannot have made a mistake in creating man.
Maybe this was just a way for the authors of Isaiah to convey to humans how much they screwed up. ;)
We read in the same collection of scripture that God planned before the world to send a savior to redeem us.

It all fits together if we just read it as it is written, without any real contradictions.

But there are seeming contradictions/problems/nonsensical seeming stuff if, if, we bring certain ideas (certain current ideas that are commonplace, like total determinism) that go against the text (which isn't obvious until you read it through fully).

Many of these current assumptions people bring to the text have gradually become familiar to me because I've read many thousands of posts on these dozen or so most discussed topics like free will and God's omniscience. Over many years, or around 15 now I suppose.

So, in 15 years and thousands of posts, of course I began to notice certain ideas that show up over and over and over. Right? Of course.

So, I now tend to pinpoint those assumptions and discuss them as my initial response to these old familiar topics like God's omniscience, the problem of evil, free will, and so on.

I am just asking people to try to consider, think, look at the assumptions they are using, such as the commonplace notion many have of total determinism (the 19th century idea of the 'clockwork Universe' where all things are predetermined fully and cannot do anything except what they are already determined ahead of time to do), etc. That and about 6 or 7 assumptions people use that are better to reexamine.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I am just asking people to try to consider, think, look at the assumptions they are using, such as the commonplace notion many have of total determinism (the 19th century idea of the 'clockwork Universe' where all things are predetermined fully and cannot do anything except what they are already determined ahead of time to do), etc. That and about 6 or 7 assumptions people use that are better to reexamine.
I do not believe in predetermination. If everything was predetermined then there would be no free will.

I believe that some things that happen to us are subject to free will and some things are not, because they were predestined by God and we have no control over them.

I believe that God is responsible for both the Good and the Bad things that happen to us, those things that are predestined and thus beyond our control.

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.” Some Answered Questions, p. 248

Man is compelled to endure the Bad things that happen to us because God set it up that way since we live in a material world where some of the Bad things happen are beyond our control. Some of these Bad things are caused by the free will decisions of other people and some of them are simply accidents and misfortunes These are our destiny, our fate, for which God is responsible.
 

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
I do not believe in predetermination. If everything was predetermined then there would be no free will.
Exactly. People are often confused by a predetermined universe, and God's ability to know the future .. believing them to be the same thing, but they are not.

A predetermined universe implies that God determined it before we chose, but God knowing the future simply means that He has some unknown mechanism for knowing our choice .. often portrayed as a different perception of 'time'.
 

night912

Well-Known Member
Exactly. People are often confused by a predetermined universe, and God's ability to know the future .. believing them to be the same thing, but they are not.

A predetermined universe implies that God determined it before we chose, but God knowing the future simply means that He has some unknown mechanism for knowing our choice .. often portrayed as a different perception of 'time'.
Yes it is. So if God created the universe and knows what we are going to do before we do it, then it's predetermined.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
That is the same argument but moved on to another universe.
There is no contradiction if we realise that God is not forcing Bob to act in a certain way. All God is doing is observing which way he acts,,,,,,,,,,,,or will act.
God knows what Bob will freely choose to do.
The part that sets up a contradiction is wanting Bob to act in a different way than the way he would choose to act, so you want Bob to act in a way that goes against his free will....................and it is only then, you say, that he can show he has free will.
It is interesting to consider of course how anyone can, without being forced in any way, act against their free will.
Basically it is a non sensical attempts to show God cannot be omniscient while we have free will. But it looks OK and so can be convincing.
I'm not entirely convinced that people choose. The longer I live, and the more I study, the more our "choices" seem to be the net result of our biology and experiences.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I'm not entirely convinced that people choose. The longer I live, and the more I study, the more our "choices" seem to be the net result of our biology and experiences.
I believe our choices are determined by our heredity and previous experiences, but that does not mean we do not make choices. Free will is simply the will/ability to make choices based upon our desires and preferences, which come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. All of these are the reasons why we choose one thing or another.

How free our choices are varies with the situation. Certainly what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints such as ability and opportunity but we have volition as otherwise we could not do anything.
 
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