What causes people to choose what they choose?

[Trailblazer]

But I think you run into issues anyway, even if we go with God simply knowing our choices as you say. Because this obviously only apply to living things, I don't know if animals have free will?

No, according to my beliefs animals do not have free will. Animals do make choices but they operate on instinct. They are unable to make moral choices like humans can make. Free will also implies that we have a rational soul and we can make choices by logical reasoning.

But nonetheless, you didn't have a choice about what colors should exist in the Universe, God decided that, God also decided that Earth should exist in the first place, that you should be allowed to choose between the colors he decided should be there etc.

Yes, God is responsible for creation, so humans did not have a choice as to what colors would exist in the Universe. Indeed, we did not have a choice about anything that would exist in the Universe or what would exist on Earth. However, we are allowed to decide what we choose from what God created.

I liken this world to a chess board. God created a chess board and humans are like chess pieces that move around on the chess board at will. We are not always 'free' to move about as we wish but we have some freedom to choose. Many things constrain our free will to choose such as capability and opportunity. For example I might have wanted to be a physician but I do not have the capability since I am not good in the hard sciences. Another example is that I might want to buy a car but if it is not available I will not have the opportunity to buy one.

Actually I have a real life example because I am looking for a car to buy since my husband ran into a tree and damaged our car so I will probably have to replace it since I predict the insurance company is going to declare it a total loss. This only happened last night so I don't know yet what my options will be. There are no cars like our car anywhere near where I live. It is a 1986 Honda Prelude, a classic car, and they are scarcer than hen's teeth. By some miracle I found a 1984 red car that is the same make and model as our blue car and it is in much better condition, and it is close to where I live, so I am hoping that if the insurance declares our car a total loss the insurance will pay me enough for the red car.

What happened to the car was an accident, it was not something my husband chose to do with his free will. He did not say "gee, I think I will run into a tree tonight!" Whatever is not freely chosen is our fate for which God is responsible, as I said in my OP, so I hold God fully responsible for what happened to the car, although I am still mad at my husband for all the grief this is causing me. However, I might end up better off in the end if I get the red car. I cannot even drive the blue car because I don't drive a stick shift anymore but as luck would have it the red car has an automatic transmission.

Given that God decided this for all none intelligent things and even for you, seems to contradict the idea of free will. You got free will, because God commanded it, I don't know if it makes sense to then talk about free will. More than it is to say that a hamster in a cage have free will.

We humans all think differently about things so what makes sense to one person does not always make sense to another person. the fact that some of us see eye to eye about God's omniscience and free will coexisting is because our scriptures say that.

All I can do is explain why I think they can coexist from my own perspective and obviously some people here won't agree with me.

I believe that God decided that humans will have free will but God does not decide what we will choose to do with our free will. We are free to choose what we are able to choose and God knows what we will choose because God is all-knowing.

I can't get my head around what impact this would have in regards to this topic Which is why I say that I honestly don't know.

I always appreciate your humility Nimos. You are still my favorite atheist.

 

[Trailblazer]

I know the feeling, I fell asleep about 11pm then was tossing and turning from about 2am, gave up trying to go back to sleep at 5am.

I finally ate dinner got in bed at about 3 am and then watched a little TV and right after I was about to dose off I was wide awake. I lay there for a long time but then I decided to get up and do my morning chores and look on the forum to see if I had any posts. Then eventually I got back in bed and slept a few hours. Then I got up and finished my chores and got back on the forum.

As I just explained to @Nimos in the post above, the reason I was so distraught last night is because my husband ran into a tree and damaged our car, a car that we have had for 20 years, as car that I love.

 

[Nimos]

I always appreciate your humility Nimos. You are still my favorite atheist.

Thanks

I try to be honest about what I believe and don't believe. And as I said in a post far back to Muhammad_isa as well, I have no intention of trying to have a go at God or religion just for doing so. That is of no importance to me.

What happened to the car was an accident, it was not something my husband chose to do with his free will. He did not say "gee, I think I will run into a tree tonight!" Whatever is not freely chosen is our fate for which God is responsible, as I said in my OP, so I hold God fully responsible for what happened to the car, although I am still mad at my husband for all the grief this is causing me.

But what I think you mention here is a good example of why I think it is so difficult to get ones head around. Because as you say, obviously you husband didn't plan to drive into a tree. Yet God would know that he would do it and as you say you hold God responsible for what happened to the car and therefore also your husband.

But in God's foreknowledge that car would end up hitting the tree, no free will is involved here, it was the fate of the car. Your husband however drove the car and equally in the future God foresaw that he were the driver. So how does the fate of the car and your husband being in the car fit together with free will? Did your husband have a choice then?

Because then suddenly objects without free will, will have their fate decided by us and not God.

 

[Trailblazer]

In such case, I'ld say the obvious answers would be deterministic physics. Chemistry is pretty deterministic and life is, at bottom, the extreme expression of complex chemistry. So why shouldn't it be deterministic?

While I happen to be of the opinion that the very complexity of neurological pathways / brain chemistry actually provides us with a certain autonomy that makes us able to choose rather freely, the idea of it all, at bottom, being deterministic physics doesn't seem that far fetched to me.

But I don't experience it like that - which doesn't mean that it isn't so off course.
I feel like I am able to freely choose things and also change my mind. Off course, that could also just be part of the deterministic ways of complex chemistry - it could be an illusion. lol

However, I'm not aware of any good / sufficient evidence to support such, so instead I go with how it appears to be to me.

What you said above makes sense to me. What we choose involves brain chemistry, and conscious and unconscious processes in the mind determine our choices. Like you, I feel like I am able to freely choose things and also change my mind.

That makes no sense to me.

I don't see how real free will can coexist with perfect foreknowledge.
To me, these things seem very much mutually exclusive.

The very basis of true "free will", is that the outcome of a free choice can not be known beforehand with certainty. At best, one could make an educated guess. And in some cases, it might have an error margin of even only a fraction of a percent. But it would still be there. That's the "free" part.

My position is that there are no gods to know anything - be it before or after the fact.

Well obviously that is your position about gods since you are an atheist.

My position is that there is a God and God is all-knowing, and God has known from the beginning of creation everything that will ever happen to humans. God does not exist in time as we measure it on Earth in a linear fashion, so from God's perspective everything that has ever happened and everything that is happening now and everything that will ever happen has already happened.

There is no connection between what God knows and what happens in this world. God knows what will happen in this world because God has perfect foreknowledge but God's foreknowledge does not cause anything to happen in this world.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

I think "free will" exists up to a certain point. I think it exists in that level of autonomy I referred to earlier as a result of the complexity of our brain chemistry and neural pathways.

I say "up to a certain point", because I also think that even though there is a level of autonomy in our decision making process, there's also still the aspect of deterministic physics and chemistry. There's also the fact that we can be manipulated into making certain decision, while we ourselves are very convinced of having had "free choice".

I also believe that free will only exists up to a certain point but I believe that for different reasons than you do.
I don't think it is about brain chemistry. Below is what I believe about free will.

Free will is simply the will/ability to make choices based upon our desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. All of these can be considered causes or reasons why we choose one thing or another.

How free our choices are varies with the situation. Certainly what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints such as ability and opportunity but we have volition as otherwise we could not choose anything.

Ultimately, my position is that I don't know. Nobody really does. The relevant sciences aren't at the stage where this question can be answered.

I agree. I don't think anyone really knows why we choose what we choose. My OP was only about whether free will is the cause of what we choose, or is it something else.

So I go by what I experience and observe in the world and assume things are as they appear to be - until evidence shows otherwise.

And what I observe and experience, seems to be a combination of both: free will coupled with deterministic forces.

I can agree with that, it is a combination, but since I am a believer I also believe that God plays a part in what happens to us, which is fated/predestined to happen, not chosen.

 

[John53]

I finally ate dinner got in bed at about 3 am and then watched a little TV and right after I was about to dose off I was wide awake. I lay there for a long time but then I decided to get up and do my morning chores and look on the forum to see if I had any posts. Then eventually I got back in bed and slept a few hours. Then I got up and finished my chores and got back on the forum.

As I just explained to @Nimos in the post above, the reason I was so distraught last night is because my husband ran into a tree and damaged our car, a car that we have had for 20 years, as car that I love.

Cars be repaired, hopefully he is ok.

 

[Trailblazer]

But what I think you mention here is a good example of why I think it is so difficult to get ones head around. Because as you say, obviously you husband didn't plan to drive into a tree. Yet God would know that he would do it and as you say you hold God responsible for what happened to the car and therefore also your husband.

Did the car example help?
Believe me, I am often as confused as you are as I cannot seem to know who is to blame when these things happen. First I blame my husband, but then I get around to blaming God and it ain't pretty. Of course all this is happening when I am still in an emotional state of mind, not in a rational state of mind. After the dust settles I start to think more clearly.

No, of course my husband did not plan to run into a tree but from my perspective he should have known better, so I do not forgive him. (Incidentally, I got rear ended driving my Honda CRV back in January by a guy who should have known better and I did not forgive him either. He was driving without any insurance so luckily I had insurance which covered the loss.)

Forgiveness is not something I hand out often, not when someone makes mistakes that causes me grief.
Religious people know what they can do with all their talk about forgiveness, it ain't working for me.

But in God's foreknowledge that car would end up hitting the tree, no free will is involved here, it was the fate of the car. Your husband however drove the car and equally in the future God foresaw that he were the driver. So how does the fate of the car and your husband being in the car fit together with free will? Did your husband have a choice then?

Because then suddenly objects without free will, will have their fate decided by us and not God.

That is correct. God knew that car would end up hitting the tree, so no free will is involved here, it was the fate of the car. However, it was not God's foreknowledge that caused the car to hit the tree, it was fate! Do you understand the difference?

I recently posted another thread where I explained this:

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 248

God is responsible for both the Good and the Bad things that happen to us, all those things that are not subject to free will and thus are beyond our control, like the accident with the car.
Man is compelled to endure these things because God set it up that way since we live in a material world where some of the bad things happen are beyond our control. That is our destiny, our fate, for which God is responsible.

You asked: "So how does the fate of the car and your husband being in the car fit together with free will? Did your husband have a choice then?"

They do fit together because my husband had free will to choose to go out and get in the car, start it, and run into a tree! However, he did not choose to run into the tree because he did not want to run into the tree; it was an accident, so I consider that fate.

The only choice my husband could have made was not to start the car unless he knew what he was doing. He has started the car hundreds of times before, for 20 years, and this never happened before so I believe it was carelessness on his part.

Because then suddenly objects without free will, will have their fate decided by us and not God.

That is a good point. Sometimes objects without free will will have their fate determined by our free will choices, but what happens to those objects might be because of free will choices or it might be because of fate. I mean if we did not deliberately intend to drive a car into a tree we did not choose to do that so it was the fate of the car. On the other hand if a person chooses to drive a car into a tree that is an act of free will and it is not fate.

 

[Trailblazer]

Cars be repaired, hopefully he is ok.

Sometimes cars cannot be repaired, not if the insurance deems them a total loss, so then I have to accept whatever money they give me to replace the car, and then even if I have the money I cannot necessarily find a replacement. In short, it is complicated and it is a huge hassle.

Yes, my husband is okay. he did not get hurt, only the car was hurt. And my husband does not have to figure out what to do about the car, I have to do all of that, so I am not okay, but I will probably be okay after this gets settled with the insurance.

My husband does not do anything and I am tired of it, but that is a different subject.
My marriage is a nightmare I cannot wake up from and free will is of no help because all the options are bleak.

 

[John53]

Sometimes cars cannot be repaired, not if the insurance deems them a total loss, so then I have to accept whatever money they give me to replace the car, and then even if I have the money I cannot necessarily find a replacement. In short, it is complicated and it is a huge hassle.

Yes, my husband is okay. he did not get hurt, only the car was hurt. And my husband does not have to figure out what to do about the car, I have to do all of that, so I am not okay, but I will probably be okay after this gets settled with the insurance.

My husband does not do anything and I am tired of it, but that is a different subject.
My marriage is a nightmare I cannot wake up from and free will is of no help because all the options are bleak.

I'm sure insurance companies can be a pain. We got lucky with ours, a tree fell through the roof a few years back and they couldn't have been more helpful.

My wife just keeps harassing me until I get it done lol.

 

[Nimos]

They do fit together because my husband had free will to choose to go out and get in the car, start it, and run into a tree! However, he did not choose to run into the tree because he did not want to run into the tree; it was an accident, so I consider that fate.

The only choice my husband could have made was not to start the car unless he knew what he was doing. He has started the car hundreds of times before, for 20 years, and this never happened before so I believe it was carelessness on his part.

That is a good point. Sometimes objects without free will will have their fate determined by our free will choices, but what happens to those objects might be because of free will choices or it might be because of fate. I mean if we did not deliberately intend to drive a car into a tree we did not choose to do that so it was the fate of the car. On the other hand if a person chooses to drive a car into a tree that is an act of free will and it is not fate.

This doesn't add up, because if your husband could decide not to start the car, then it wouldn't have ended up in the tree. So the fate of the car would have been different. But in theory your husband or any human could interact with everything either directly or indirectly. Which means that fate is purely decided by humans and not God. And in fact this starts a chain reaction sort of like the butterfly effect, because the fate of the tree were to be hit by the car, all the grass, insects etc. fate which might also have been affected by the car crash would also have to change and each insect, grass, tree producing air, each rain drop hitting each straw of grass would have to change as well and the list goes on. And this could escalate throughout the whole Universe in theory and that is just from one car crash not happening. And you can times that with trillion X trillions X trillions X trillions... pretty much to infinity of all the fates that would be changes probably just in a single 1 second of humans impacting fate as you say.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm sure insurance companies can be a pain. We got lucky with ours, a tree fell through the roof a few years back and they couldn't have been more helpful.

My wife just keeps harassing me until I get it done lol.

My insurance company is great, I have no complaints at all. They have settled many claims for me, for houses and cars, and they are fair and efficient. I pay a lot for insurance but it is worth every penny.

I could harass my husband until the day I die but he still won't do anything....
Ever heard of passive-aggressive? If I ask him to change he threatens suicide.

 

[Trailblazer]

This doesn't add up, because if your husband could decide not to start the car, then it wouldn't have ended up in the tree. So the fate of the car would have been different.

My husband could have decided not to start the car, if he had been aware enough to realize he was in no mental condition to do so. The problem is that he has no self-awareness at all.

But in theory your husband or any human could interact with everything either directly or indirectly. Which means that fate is purely decided by humans and not God. And in fact this starts a chain reaction sort of like the butterfly effect, because the fate of the tree were to be hit by the car, all the grass, insects etc. fate which might also have been affected by the car crash would also have to change and each insect, grass, tree producing air, each rain drop hitting each straw of grass would have to change as well and the list goes on. And this could escalate throughout the whole Universe in theory and that is just from one car crash not happening. And you can times that with trillion X trillions X trillions X trillions... pretty much to infinity of all the fates that would be changes probably just in a single 1 second of humans impacting fate as you say.

My husband or any human could interact with everything either directly or indirectly and that would mean that fate is purely decided by humans and not God. I think that is actually what happens in many cases, because the free will choice of one person because the fate of another person or people. For example, in 2002 I lost my job due to budget cuts that management chose to make. The choices were free will decisions of management but they caused my fate. I did not choose to lose my job, it was my fate.

However, that does not solve other problems, such as why some people get cancer and Alzheimer's disease and why some people are riding their bike and crash into something that causes them to fall and be injured or why some people get caught in an earthquake or a Tsunami.....

The list of what God is responsible for goes on and on and on. Believers are living in a dream world when they say God is not responsible for anything. They are living in a bubble, just so they can retain their beliefs that God is all-loving. It's sad really that people are so brainwashed by their religious beliefs.

 

[Nimos]

However, that does not solve other problems, such as why some people get cancer and Alzheimer's disease and why some people are riding their bike and crash into something that causes them to fall and be injured or why some people get caught in an earthquake or a Tsunami.....

The list of what God is responsible for goes on and on and on. Believers are living in a dream world when they say God is not responsible for anything. They are living in a bubble, just so they can retain their beliefs that God is all-loving. It's sad really that people are so brainwashed by their religious beliefs.

However if there is no free will and our fate is fixed. Then all of these questions or wondering would be explainable

 

[Trailblazer]

However if there is no free will and our fate is fixed. Then all of these questions or wondering would be explainable

That's true, but then you would have to explain what causes people to do things.
Fate does not explain that.... If God fated everything that happens to us we would merely be God's programmed robots.

 

[John53]

That's true, but then you would have to explain what causes people to do things.
Fate does not explain that.... If God fated everything that happens to us we would merely be God's programmed robots.

What would be the problem with that?

 

[Nimos]

That's true, but then you would have to explain what causes people to do things.
Fate does not explain that.... If God fated everything that happens to us we would merely be God's programmed robots.

Yes that would be a consequence, however we would not experience it like that, we would experience it as we are now. As having an illusion of choice and being able to decide our own fate.

I mean, you never made a choice about whether or not you like chocolate, even if things were as you said, how did you end up liking chocolate?

 

[ppp]

That's true, but then you would have to explain what causes people to do things.
Fate does not explain that.... If God fated everything that happens to us we would merely be God's programmed robots.

If there is an omnipotent, omniscient god then we are merely that god's programmed robots with the illusion of free will.

 

[Trailblazer]

What would be the problem with that?

Would you want to be a robot programmed by God?
I know I would not want to be one. I like being able to choose.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Yes that would be a consequence, however we would not experience it like that, we would experience it as we are now. As having an illusion of choice and being able to decide our own fate.

That's not realistic..
If people are not responsible for making decisions while they are driving along the highway, then who is?

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes that would be a consequence, however we would not experience it like that, we would experience it as we are now. As having an illusion of choice and being able to decide our own fate.

I understand your point.... We would believe we have free will but in reality we would be like God's puppets on a string.
No thanks. I do not even like God so I don't want to be His puppet.

I mean, you never made a choice about whether or not you like chocolate, even if things were as you said, how did you end up liking chocolate?

Some people just like chocolate. I don't like it much myself, except in cookies, but even then only occasionally.

 

[Nimos]

That's not realistic..
If people are not responsible for making decisions while they are driving along the highway, then who is?

Well God would.

Im not saying this is logical or without issues, because obviously none of it in my opinion makes a whole lot of sense, whether we have free will or not. For instance, you don't decide whether to go to heaven and hell either, God does.

But if he decide your decisions as with the highway, then clearly he knows whether or not you go to heaven or not as well even before you are born, so obviously that causes some issues here as well or at least makes the whole concept of thriving to go to heaven pointless, I would say