What causes people to choose what they choose?

[Trailblazer]

Here we go again, lets say I have two choices A and B, and your deity knows which one I will make before I perceive making it, can I choose other than what this deity knows I will choose, making that deity wrong about my choice?

Check mate...

You will make the one choice that the deity knows you will make simply because the deity knows which choice you will make, not because you could not have made another choice.

The choice you will make is determined by YOU, it is not determined by what the deity knows you will do.

You are FREE to choose either A or B...

If you choose A the deity knows you are going to choose A.
If you choose B the deity knows you are going to choose B.

 

[Trailblazer]

So if I had two choices A and B, and your deity knows which one I will choose before I perceive choosing it, am I free to choose the other, and make your deity wrong, or can I only choose the one your deity knows I will choose?

If it's the former, then your deity couldn't have known exactly what I will choose, before I perceive choosing it, and if it's the latter then my perception of a choice would have to be an illusion, and any notion of free will is negated.

Your explanation still has a rational contradiction in it. Just like @muhammad_isa's has.

I just answered that question in my previous post. Please try to understand what I said and if you do not understand it tell me why you do not understand it. Otherwise we are just going to keep going in circles.

 

[Trailblazer]

Im sorry Trailblazer but you get it backwards, you even confirmed this several times in what you write.

You said "God knows everything at creation"

Therefore presenting this as if we have a choice is simply not correct,

You just cannot understand that what God knows does not determine what we choose.
Sure, God knows what we will choose at creation but it could be A, B, C, D, E, F, or G!

you even confirm it in the example as well:
If you chose a red car God would have always known you would choose a red car.
If you chose a blue car God would have always known you would choose a blue car.
If you chose a green car God would have always known you would choose a green car.
If you chose a purple car God would have always known you would choose a purple car.

God knows you before you are born, before you are even old enough to buy the car and he knows which of these colors car you will buy, as you yourself write.

That is absolutely correct, but what God knows is not what CAUSES you to choose the color of car you will choose.

You can choose any color of car you want to and whatever color of car you choose will be the color of car that God has always known you will choose.

You can choose to buy a red car OR a blue car OR a green car OR a purple car OR an orange car OR a silver car OR a black car OR a brown car OR even a pink car!

Therefore the correct way to write it is like this:
You chose a blue car because God have always known you would choose a blue car.

Therefore the correct way to write it is like this:
You chose a blue car because you wanted to choose the blue car.
God has always known you would choose a blue car.

You never make the choice it will be blue!! If it were any other color, lets say red, the line would be.
You chose a red car because God have always known you would choose a red car.

Therefore the correct way to write it is like this:
You made the choice it will be blue!! If it were any other color, lets say red, the line would be.
You chose a red car because you wanted to choose the red car.
God has always known you would choose a red car.

If God knows the future and have always known it, then there is only one option.

That is completely illogical because what God knows does not determine what we will choose. We determine what we will choose by choosing it with our free will. God, who exists in another dimension where there is no time, has known since creation what everyone will choose, because God is all-knowing.

To put it in a timeline:

1. God knows everything
2. You are born
3. You grow up
4. You buy a blue car (Because God knows you will do that)

To put it in a timeline:

1. God knows everything
2. You are born
3. You grow up
4. You buy a blue car (Because you choose to do that)
5. God has always known you would choose to buy a blue car because God is all-knowing.

 

[Nimos]

You just cannot understand that what God knows does not determine what we choose.
Sure, God knows what we will choose at creation but it could be A, B, C, D, E, F, or G!

You get it backwards, God knows the result before you make your choice!!

Therefore only one of them are correct!!

X = 2 (God knows that 2 is the correct answer. You CAN'T change that)

Now you have to put a number in place of X, so the future happen as God knows it will!! The only correct answer is 2!!

If God knew that X = 4 then you would put in 4 instead, when you get to the point in your life where you have to make set choice, doesn't matter for God, he knows that you will choose 4.

God doesn't adapt to your choices, if he knows the future.

That is absolutely correct, but what God knows is not what CAUSES you to choose the color of car you will choose.

It is not God forcing it on you, its the fact that he knows. That is why I keep telling you that it doesn't matter if its God, fortune cookies or a Smurf that knows the future.

If you want to claim that they have perfect foreknowledge then there is no other solution.

That is completely illogical because what God knows does not determine what we will choose. We determine what we will choose by choosing it with our free will. God, who exists in another dimension where there is no time, has known since creation what everyone will choose, because God is all-knowing.

It is not, look at the equation above that illustrate it perfectly and as simple as you can possible get it.

X = 2, there is only one number you can put in place of X, if you want it to equal 2. The number 2 represent the known future and X is the choice you have to make at some point during your life.

To put it in a timeline:

1. God knows everything
2. You are born
3. You grow up
4. You buy a blue car (Because you choose to do that)
5. God has always known you would choose to buy a blue car because God is all-knowing.

Again you get it backwards.

Point 1. is the first thing that happens, which is that God knows everything.. you don't need point 5 in this case, because God already knows everything after point 1.

 

[halbhh]

Then it's not omniscience.

Ok.

But, the term 'omniscience' doesn't actually imply knowing the future, so you may want another word for that idea, since some like me will point out it's not the same.

Omniscience: the state of knowing everything.

No specification about knowing future events there. Instead, knowing all things that have happened and seeing all that is happening do fit.

That's a vast, supernatural level of knowledge, and could be equivalent to the total complexity of the Universe, for example.

 

[muhammad_isa]

God knows the result before you make your choice!!

..and how does God know?

 

[Trailblazer]

In the bible we explicitly read God did not expect some things people did.

So, according to the bible, God's omniscience isn't comprised of knowing all of the future.

Just because God did not EXPECT some things that people did that does not mean God did not KNOW that they were going to do them.

God is all-knowing so that means God knows everything.

 

[Trailblazer]

..and how does God know?

God is all-knowing so that means God knows everything.

 

[Nimos]

..and how does God know?

You just cannot understand that what God knows does not determine what we choose.

Found this video of some philosophers actually discussing this very idea and present arguments from both sides and some we haven't talked about here. I would however as I said to you Muhammad_isa and if I understood you correct you agreed with. Still claim that if anyone knows the future there can't be free will for anyone, not even God in this case. These guys doesn't address in the video however. Its only 10 minutes but I think you would find it interesting and there is not a correct answer presented in it. But try to give it a look and let me know what you think about their arguments.

 

[Trailblazer]

You get it backwards, God knows the result before you make your choice!!

I know that. That is why I said:
Sure, God knows what we will choose at creation but it could be A, B, C, D, E, F, or G!

Therefore only one of them are correct!!

Therefore God knows that one choice we will make.

God doesn't adapt to your choices, if he knows the future.

God doesn't adapt to our choices, God knows what our choices will be.

It is not God forcing it on you, its the fact that he knows. That is why I keep telling you that it doesn't matter if its God, fortune cookies or a Smurf that knows the future.

If you want to claim that they have perfect foreknowledge then there is no other solution.

That's right, we will choose what God knows we will choose, of all the available options.
God knows the one choice we will make because God is all-knowing.

Again you get it backwards.

Point 1. is the first thing that happens, which is that God knows everything.. you don't need point 5 in this case, because God already knows everything after point 1.

That's right, but God's knowledge of what we will do does not CAUSE what we will choose to do.
You will buy a blue car because you choose to buy a blue car.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

Question.—If God has knowledge of an action which will be performed by someone, and it has been written on the Tablet of Fate, is it possible to resist it?

Answer.—The foreknowledge of a thing is not the cause of its realization; for the essential knowledge of God surrounds, in the same way, the realities of things, before as well as after their existence, and it does not become the cause of their existence. It is a perfection of God...
Some Answered Questions, p. 138

 

[Nimos]

..and how does God know?

As @Trailblazer already said, if he knows everything he would know this. Which is the premise for this whole discussion. So him knowing the result its sort of a given I would say.

 

[Nimos]

I know that. That is why I said:
Sure, God knows what we will choose at creation but it could be A, B, C, D, E, F, or G!

It doesn't matter if it could be A, B, C etc. because only one of them are correct.

God only sees the one correct future, so if it could be any of these letters then God wouldn't know the future.

Do you agree that there is only one correct future?

So using my example from before.

If God knows that X = 2, then X can't be anything but 2. You don't have a choice here, do you agree?
And I really want to stress this, because you keep saying that it could be A, B, C etc. like each of them are equally possible solution. But it doesn't matter if it could be anything else, because God knows which one of them is the right one in the future, do you see why that is important and the only relevant thing here?

 

[muhammad_isa]

As @Trailblazer already said, if he knows everything he would know this. Which is the premise for this whole discussion. So him knowing the result its sort of a given I would say.

I asked the question, because you can't seem to understand why God knowing doesn't cause us to make a choice against our will.

I already discussed about the time-traveler, and you seemed to understand better how it has nothing to do with free-will in that case.

 

[Trailblazer]

Found this video of some philosophers actually discussing this very idea and present arguments from both sides and some we haven't talked about here. I would however as I said to you Muhammad_isa and if I understood you correct you agreed with. Still claim that if anyone knows the future there can't be free will for anyone, not even God in this case. These guys doesn't address in the video however. Its only 10 minutes but I think you would find it interesting and there is not a correct answer presented in it. But try to give it a look and let me know what you think about their arguments.

Thanks Nimos, that was a good video. It was very difficult to get through the first part because that guy in the glasses is so clueless, but I stuck it out to the end and I am glad I did.

Here are some points I jotted down and my comments.

God knows that Billy will steal the money, so Billy will steal the money but Billy will not steal the money because God knows that Billy will steal the money. Billy will steal the money because Billy CHOSE to steal the money. What God knows does not affect free will in any way. God's perfect foreknowledge is an attribute of God.

It is patently absurd and completely illogical to say (as the guy in the glasses said) that God's knowledge that Billy would be a thief made Billy a thief! That God determines all our fates because God knows what our fates will be is complete blarney!

God's foreknowledge does not cause anyone's actions!

Please go to 7:14 and watch the video through 9:02 because that guy understands how this all works, how we can have free will along with God's perfect foreknowledge, but even after that the guy in the glasses argues with him because he just does not understand!

 

[ppp]

Ok.

But, the term 'omniscience' doesn't actually imply knowing the future, so you may want another word for that idea, since some like me will point out it's not the same.

Omniscience: the state of knowing everything.

No. Everything is everything. The past. The future. The now. The whole. The totality. The whole freaking ball of wax.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: ↑I know that. That is why I said:
Sure, God knows what we will choose at creation but it could be A, B, C, D, E, F, or G!

It doesn't matter if it could be A, B, C etc. because only one of them are correct.

God only sees the one correct future, so if it could be any of these letters then God wouldn't know the future.

Do you agree that there is only one correct future?

Yes, only one event will happen in the future but I am not calling that the 'correct future.'

So using my example from before.

If God knows that X = 2, then X can't be anything but 2. You don't have a choice here, do you agree?

No, I do not agree. You could have made another choice but you chose to do what God knew you would choose.
You did not choose to do what God knew you would do because God knew you would choose it, you chose it from all the available options because you wanted to choose it. If you had chosen X = 5, that is the choice that God would have known you would make.

And I really want to stress this, because you keep saying that it could be A, B, C etc. like each of them are equally possible solution. But it doesn't matter if it could be anything else, because God knows which one of them is the right one in the future, do you see why that is important and the only relevant thing here?

The choice you make can be and will be whatever you choose -- A, B, C etc. Each of them are equally possible. God has always known which choice you will make but God's foreknowledge is not what causes you to choose.

 

[Trailblazer]

And there you have proved my point for me.

If God knows we will choose A, then we will Choose A (and we won't be able to choose B or C).
If God knows we will choose B, then we will Choose B (and we won't be able to choose A or C).
If God knows we will choose C, then we will Choose (and we won't be able to choose A or B).

The bits I highlighted in red are the bits that show we have no free will, since we are not able to choose anything else.

Sorry, I made a mistake, to err is human.
I am now going to correct my mistake.

If God knows we will choose A, then we will Choose A (and we won't choose B or C).
If God knows we will choose B, then we will Choose B (and we won't choose A or C).
If God knows we will choose C, then we will Choose (and we won't choose A or B).

The bits I highlighted in blue are the bits that show that we won't choose anything other than what God knows we will choose.

We are able to choose A, B, or C because we have free will to choose, and whatever we choose will be what God has always known we would choose.

 

[Nimos]

I asked the question, because you can't seem to understand why God knowing doesn't cause us to make a choice against our will.

I already discussed about the time-traveler, and you seemed to understand better how it has nothing to do with free-will in that case.

Because there is a huge difference.

The time traveler would only know future after having experienced it and also not have certainty that a given event is what led to that future.

Which means that he would be able to see an event happening, and then go into the future and see what happened, however he wouldn't have a complete and accurate knowledge of whether or not that single event the cause or whether it were a series of events when combined that led to the future being like that. Obviously if he only travelled a couple of minutes into the future, he could be fairly certain. But lets say he went back in time and prevent JFK from being shot, just back to our time and the future could be completely different. He obviously would know that preventing the murder of JFK played a role, but there might have been billions of events being different in the time from then to present. Therefore he wouldn't know exactly what the future would look like as he jump forward in time again.

But God doesn't have this problem, if he thought or wanted to know what the future would look like if he prevented the murder of JFK, he would know exactly what it would look like, even before preventing it, because he knows everything, the time traveler doesn't.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Because there is a huge difference.

The time traveler would only know future after having experienced it..

Well that's the whole point.
You don't believe in God, yet you presume to know that God has not "experienced" our future in a similar way.

..he wouldn't know exactly what the future would look like as he jump forward in time again.

But God doesn't have this problem, if he thought or wanted to know what the future would look like if he prevented the murder of JFK, he would know exactly what it would look like, even before preventing it, because he knows everything, the time traveler doesn't.

I have no idea what you are talking about. It is the mechanism of knowing that I refer to, and that is all that is relevant.

 

[Nimos]

Thanks Nimos, that was a good video. It was very difficult to get through the first part because that guy in the glasses is so clueless, but I stuck it out to the end and I am glad I did.

Its on purpose

They intentionally raise common questions that people might have to then address them

It is patently absurd and completely illogical to say (as the guy in the glasses said) that God's knowledge that Billy would be a thief made Billy a thief! That God determines all our fates because God knows what our fates will be is complete blarney!

I know you think it is, but it really isn't

Please go to 7:14 and watch the video through 9:02 because that guy understands how this all works, how we can have free will along with God's perfect foreknowledge, but even after that the guy in the glasses argues with him because he just does not understand!

The issue is that even if God were present outside our time and could see past, present and future all at the same time, you run into problems. Because you add limitations to God.

God would no longer know everything, he wouldn't know which color car you would buy, he would simply be able to see your future, if you bought a red car or If you bought a green car... etc. But until you actually bought the car, God is completely clueless about which color car you will end up buying and what that future would look like. Which means that the foreknowledge of God is severely limited.

So as I see it that wouldn't work either.

No, I do not agree. You could have made another choice but you chose to do what God knew you would choose.
You did not choose to do what God knew you would do because God knew you would choose it, you chose it from all the available options because you wanted to choose it. If you had chosen X = 5, that is the choice that God would have known you would make.

Ok, I think you misunderstood it.

Future = 2
This is the one correct future God sees, NO ONE chose this number, it is simply how the future looks, if you combined all events in the Universe, you buying a car, war in Europe, all positions of every single atom in the Universe etc. From this moment in time to a future point in time, what you will get is 2, it is simply the state everything is at in the future, if we should give it a number.

Present to future = X
This means that every single atoms, whatever people do.. etc. in the period between now and the future.

If X doesn't equal 2, then we didn't end up in the future that God sees. AGAIN NO ONE CHOSE THE NUMBER 2, it simply represent how the future looks like as God sees it.

So if God have perfect foreknowledge X must equal 2 which means that all "choices", atoms and events, must occur in such a way that X ends up being equal 2.

Does that make sense?

Lets say that in the this future God sees, you buy a red car, the result would be 2. If you bought a green car... X would be 1.9999998 or whatever. And therefore the future would be. 1.9999998 = 2 and therefore not the future that God sees, so you can't but a green car.

If God knows we will choose A, then we will Choose A (and we won't choose B or C).
If God knows we will choose B, then we will Choose B (and we won't choose A or C).
If God knows we will choose C, then we will Choose (and we won't choose A or B).

The bits I highlighted in blue are the bits that show that we won't choose anything other than what God knows we will choose.

We are able to choose A, B, or C because we have free will to choose, and whatever we choose will be what God has always known we would choose.

This is so confusing, because now you are agreeing with me from what I can see