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Knowing God

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
The scriptures teach that the Holy Spirit is central to a person’s adoption as a child of God [Romans 8:15-17].



God is one [Deut. 6:4; Gal. 3:20]

God is (a) Spirit [John 4:24]

They that believe on him [Jesus Christ] receive the Spirit [John 7:39]

He that is joined to the Lord [Jesus Christ] is one spirit [1 Cor. 6:17]

They must worship him [God] in spirit and in truth [John 4:24]



Ephesians 2:18

‘For through him [Jesus Christ] we both [Jew and Gentile] have access by one Spirit [the Holy Spirit] unto the Father.’

John 14:6

‘no man cometh unto the Father, but by me [Jesus Christ]’

Philippians 2:2

‘Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.’

Ephesians 4:4-6

‘Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.’



True fellowship, peace, and unity, (we are told) comes through the indwelling Holy Spirit.



Q: Can any person claim to know God if he/she does not know, and follow, Christ through the indwelling Holy Spirit, received by grace?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
In my view, Jesus (a) was a proof of God while he was on earth, in his words "I am the light of the world so long as I am in this world". When he left, Elijah (a) because the proof and light, and the comforter/praised one to come, is Mohammad (s) who too would be an instance of the holy spirit and the truth from God and be a means to God.

Aside from people witnessing Elijah (a), the fact, that Jesus (a) would ascend, would be a proof that Elijah (a) had to return, because there's always a proof, and in case before Jesus (a) it was John the Baptist (a). And so Elijah (a) was hidden because people killed John (a) and sought to kill Jesus (a).

And so all this is context of what the holy spirit is and it's the chosen image of God like Adam (a) and continues from him to the Mahdi (a), the earth is never without a divine connector to God. It's up God to set it like he set Seth (a).

This is beyond clear to me, that Gospels and Torah both prophecy Mohammad (s) but people can play games, just as Sunnis do with Ulil-Amr (a) in 4:59 and make it about secular rulers when the context is divine leadership from God.

The Gospels show God's anointed kings are holy and chosen as a the path to God, and so corrects the previous corruptions in scripture that show Prophets to be huge sinners.

Gospels with exception of divorce and a few things here and there, are divine and from God to me. God revealed them through Jesus (a) to each disciple, just as Quran has repeated facts, so do the Gospels. Some of it is lost, some of it corrupted, but you can tell most of it is from God.

The disciples all reveal their particular one but how they compliment each other is a sign it's from God, all of them.
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
In my view, Jesus (a) was a proof of God while he was on earth, in his words "I am the light of the world so long as I am in this world". When he left, Elijah (a) because the proof and light, and the comforter/praised one to come, is Mohammad (s) who too would be an instance of the holy spirit and the truth from God and be a means to God.

Aside from people witnessing Elijah (a), the fact, that Jesus (a) would ascend, would be a proof that Elijah (a) had to return, because there's always a proof, and in case before Jesus (a) it was John the Baptist (a). And so Elijah (a) was hidden because people killed John (a) and sought to kill Jesus (a).

And so all this is context of what the holy spirit is and it's the chosen image of God like Adam (a) and continues from him to the Mahdi (a), the earth is never without a divine connector to God. It's up God to set it like he set Seth (a).

This is beyond clear to me, that Gospels and Torah both prophecy Mohammad (s) but people can play games, just as Sunnis do with Ulil-Amr (a) in 4:59 and make it about secular rulers when the context is divine leadership from God.

The Gospels show God's anointed kings are holy and chosen as a the path to God, and so corrects the previous corruptions in scripture that show Prophets to be huge sinners.

Gospels with exception of divorce and a few things here and there, are divine and from God to me. God revealed them through Jesus (a) to each disciple, just as Quran has repeated facts, so do the Gospels. Some of it is lost, some of it corrupted, but you can tell most of it is from God.

The disciples all reveal their particular one but how they compliment each other is a sign it's from God, all of them.

What do you make of the words of John the Baptist, Luke 2:16, 'John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize with the Holy Ghost and with fire:'?

When do you suppose this baptism took place?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What do you make of the words of John the Baptist, Luke 2:16, 'John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize with the Holy Ghost and with fire:'?

When do you suppose this baptism took place?

John (a) and Jesus (a) were equals to me as they are both from the same chosen household, so this is referring to Mohammad (s) who is of the exalted ones who the word of God was with and were the word of God, the tree of life and knowledge.

When Jesus (a) was asked if he is "the Prophet", he says no, and that's who the world was created through and who everything was created from it.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Let’s say my father calls me up after a few decades somehow because my maternal grandparents are dead and can’t feed him our number, and offers to adopt me if I say I love him. Not only hasn’t he earned it but I have been his daughter the entire time. He only doesn’t treat me like one because he doesn’t want me. Should I accept that?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Let’s say my father calls me up after a few decades somehow because my maternal grandparents are dead and can’t feed him our number, and offers to adopt me if I say I love him. Not only hasn’t he earned it but I have been his daughter the entire time. He only doesn’t treat me like one because he doesn’t want me. Should I accept that?

God created us, we either try to force him to accept who've become even if in reality he can't accept it or we choose to accept him and change ourselves for his sake. I choose the latter, though, I can see the want to be accepted for whatever choice we have chosen.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
John (a) and Jesus (a) were equals to me as they are both from the same chosen household, so this is referring to Mohammad (s) who is of the exalted ones who the word of God was with and were the word of God, the tree of life and knowledge.

When Jesus (a) was asked if he is "the Prophet", he says no, and that's who the world was created through and who everything was created from it.
How can John and Jesus be equals if John says, 'one mightier than I cometh'? In John's Gospel, John is recorded as saying, 'I saw, and bear record that this is the Son of God' [John 1:34]. Is Muhammad the Son of God? Does the Qur'an not say that God has no Son?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
How can John and Jesus be equals if John says, 'one mightier than I cometh'? In John's Gospel, John is recorded as saying, 'I saw, and bear record that this is the Son of God' [John 1:34]. Is Muhammad the Son of God? Does the Qur'an not say that God has no Son?

Terminologies, change, from language to language. Since in the context of Arabic at that time, Son of God was taken very literal, and that is what the term means, it was denied. In the Gospels and Torah and books between it was metaphoric for God's chosen humans who are closer to God is some context, and in some contexts, those who are near to God in general as in believers and good doers.

Quran says "if he was to take a son, he would taken from those he chosen from who he created", but as the terminology was literal with people of Mohammad (s), he would not use that term in that context.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Terminologies, change, from language to language. Since in the context of Arabic at that time, Son of God was taken very literal, and that is what the term means, it was denied. In the Gospels and Torah and books between it was metaphoric for God's chosen humans who are closer to God is some context, and in some contexts, those who are near to God in general as in believers and good doers.

Quran says "if he was to take a son, he would taken from those he chosen from who he created", but as the terminology was literal with people of Mohammad (s), he would not use that term in that context.
If John and Jesus are equals, what makes Muhammad 'mightier' than both?!

Also, where does Jesus say that he is not 'the prophet' [Deuteronomy 18:18]?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If John and Jesus are equals, what makes Muhammad 'mightier' than both?!

Also, where does Jesus say that he is not 'the prophet' [Deuteronomy 18:18]?

Their love of God is the greatest and they are of utmost submission to God. God always replaces a sign with the like of it or better then it, never less.

He is asked in the Gospels if he is the Prophet, and says no. I can quote but you should be able to just google it.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
By the way Shiism is very close to the save concept in Christianity. We believe if we love the chosen ones, and they intercede for us, their intercession combination with our love for them, is a source of redemption and purification from sins. We just don't believe their blood is what save us, but rather, God's love for them combined with our love for them out of love of God, can redeem us. Our repentance to God is part of it but so is their intercession. This combination is in the Quran. They are way to recognize God and they are the way to know God, and if we appreciate God's gift in this sense, we are counted among the grateful to God's favor upon humans, and they are those who he bestowed his favor to humanity regarding (1:7) and who holding on to, is holding to God as they are his rope coupled with the divine revelation.

I see Gospels as a manifestation of Welayat of God's chosen kings, Jesus (a) centralized, but it's not just about him, but previous ones and the ones he prophesized to come. It corrects the corruption of the Torah and books after, from the extreme unjust nature attributed to some of God's chosen anointed kings.

From another perspective, since the intercession is from God and established by him, there is no interceder upon our path but God. But from another, they intercede and save souls.

Also, what you attribute ambiguously to the holy spirit (unclear concept), we see the Imam as the holy spirit from God and all the Prophets are the holy spirit. The holy spirit is the pole from God by which he pulls his creation back to him, the power vested in the leader and guide of time, mainly, the light of his soul that is in all things.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
In my view, Jesus (a) was a proof of God while he was on earth, in his words "I am the light of the world so long as I am in this world". When he left, Elijah (a) because the proof and light, and the comforter/praised one to come, is Mohammad (s) who too would be an instance of the holy spirit and the truth from God and be a means to God.

Aside from people witnessing Elijah (a), the fact, that Jesus (a) would ascend, would be a proof that Elijah (a) had to return, because there's always a proof, and in case before Jesus (a) it was John the Baptist (a). And so Elijah (a) was hidden because people killed John (a) and sought to kill Jesus (a).

And so all this is context of what the holy spirit is and it's the chosen image of God like Adam (a) and continues from him to the Mahdi (a), the earth is never without a divine connector to God. It's up God to set it like he set Seth (a).

This is beyond clear to me, that Gospels and Torah both prophecy Mohammad (s) but people can play games, just as Sunnis do with Ulil-Amr (a) in 4:59 and make it about secular rulers when the context is divine leadership from God.

The Gospels show God's anointed kings are holy and chosen as a the path to God, and so corrects the previous corruptions in scripture that show Prophets to be huge sinners.

Gospels with exception of divorce and a few things here and there, are divine and from God to me. God revealed them through Jesus (a) to each disciple, just as Quran has repeated facts, so do the Gospels. Some of it is lost, some of it corrupted, but you can tell most of it is from God.

The disciples all reveal their particular one but how they compliment each other is a sign it's from God, all of them.

Religious beliefs, and ancient texts without historical provenance DO NOT represent Truth. Theyare subjective conclusions based on faith.

Quoting ancient scripture does not conclude ;knowledge of God. It only determines the human view of God in the ancient tribal culture in which it was writen.
 
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74x12

Well-Known Member
The scriptures teach that the Holy Spirit is central to a person’s adoption as a child of God [Romans 8:15-17].



God is one [Deut. 6:4; Gal. 3:20]

God is (a) Spirit [John 4:24]

They that believe on him [Jesus Christ] receive the Spirit [John 7:39]

He that is joined to the Lord [Jesus Christ] is one spirit [1 Cor. 6:17]

They must worship him [God] in spirit and in truth [John 4:24]



Ephesians 2:18

‘For through him [Jesus Christ] we both [Jew and Gentile] have access by one Spirit [the Holy Spirit] unto the Father.’

John 14:6

‘no man cometh unto the Father, but by me [Jesus Christ]’

Philippians 2:2

‘Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.’

Ephesians 4:4-6

‘Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.’



True fellowship, peace, and unity, (we are told) comes through the indwelling Holy Spirit.



Q: Can any person claim to know God if he/she does not know, and follow, Christ through the indwelling Holy Spirit, received by grace?
They can claim it; but it's not really true.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Religious beliefs, and ancient texts without historical provenance DO NOT represent Truth. Theyare subjective conclusions based on faith.

The Quran represents God's personality, and has someway revealed his full personality in it. How, it's a mystery yet it's clear that is so. God's glory in the Quran is a eternal truth, it's his personality, which always existed, manifested by those words.

However, there is a dark spell upon it. Same with Gospels, trinity is only see as opposed to Shiism Islam in it, because of dark sorcery. Same reason why people don't see Ulil-Amr in 4:59 to be Ahlulbayt (A) despite the context of a comparison to a previous Ahlulbayt (a) in 4:54, and the flow of the warning not to deny God's signs in respect to that. The envied humans in this context are the Ulul-Amr (a), the Ahlulbayt (a) of Mohammad (s).

The truth is clear, what makes it unclear is due to sorcery of Iblis and his forces a long with the propaganda to put out God's light.

But the truth is only unclear to hard hearts, and the way to break it, is to soften the heart and contextualize God's speech.

Easy to isolate. But if seen all together, words of God all together, everything becomes easy when you contextualize and see the forest, rather then focus on the trees.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The Quran represents God's personality, and has someway revealed his full personality in it. How, it's a mystery yet it's clear that is so. God's glory in the Quran is a eternal truth, it's his personality, which always existed, manifested by those words.

God remains one inseparable and unknowable according to the Quran. It remains that you are NOT providing anything objective that could prove anything you claim.

However, there is a dark spell upon it. Same with Gospels, trinity is only see as opposed to Shiism Islam in it, because of dark sorcery. Same reason why people don't see Ulil-Amr in 4:59 to be Ahlulbayt (A) despite the context of a comparison to a previous Ahlulbayt (a) in 4:54, and the flow of the warning not to deny God's signs in respect to that. The envied humans in this context are the Ulul-Amr (a), the Ahlulbayt (a) of Mohammad (s).

Your objection to the Trinity remains equally problematic, though I do not believe in the Trinity, because it remains a subjective claim without objective evidence to claim any 'proof' either logically, your use of logic requires presuppositions that only those that believe as you do consider it true, nor with physical objective verifiable evidence.'

The truth is clear, what makes it unclear is due to sorcery of Iblis and his forces a long with the propaganda to put out God's light.

The Truth claim remains subjective and unprovable, because of your failure to provide objective verifiable evidence for your claim. This remains a fact regardless of any claim you can make based on ancient tribal scriptures.

But the truth is only unclear to hard hearts, and the way to break it, is to soften the heart and contextualize God's speech.

Easy to isolate. But if seen all together, words of God all together, everything becomes easy when you contextualize and see the forest, rather then focus on the trees.

Only based on your belief and faith, nothing objective to back up your claims.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
God remains one inseparable and unknowable according to the Quran. It remains that you are NOT providing anything objective that could prove anything you claim.



Your objection to the Trinity remains equally problematic, though I do not believe in the Trinity, because it remains a subjective claim without objective evidence to claim any 'proof' either logically, your use of logic requires presuppositions that only those that believe as you do consider it true, nor with physical objective verifiable evidence.'

God is both manifest and hidden. He is hidden in his manifestation, and manifest in his hiddenness. Quran contains a manifestation of all degrees of his glory, from manifest to most hidden, and it's what make me of it. His personality is manifest in all degrees through it at various luminosity and intensity depending on the capacity and heart of the individual.

God is unknowable yet known. I was talking more from the known perspective, and his personality is found in the Quran, but of course, his fully glory is always hidden from all creatures, even Mohammad (s), as in the highest ultimate self-glorification level, which only he knows.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
They can claim it; but it's not really true.

'Not really true' is equally subjective. As with all ancient conflicting diverse scriptures, beliefs they lack any objective verifiable evidence as to which may be true or not.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
'Not really true' is equally subjective. As with all ancient conflicting diverse scriptures, beliefs they lack any objective verifiable evidence as to which may be true or not.
The word subjective is overused, that it's losing all meaning in time.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
God is both manifest and hidden. He is hidden in his manifestation, and manifest in his hiddenness. Quran contains a manifestation of all degrees of his glory, from manifest to most hidden, and it's what make me of it. His personality is manifest in all degrees through it at various luminosity and intensity depending on the capacity and heart of the individual.

God is unknowable yet known. I was talking more from the known perspective, and his personality is found in the Quran, but of course, his fully glory is always hidden from all creatures, even Mohammad (s), as in the highest ultimate self-glorification level, which only he knows.

The facts remain, IF God exists, his ultimate nature and existence is unknowable from the human perspective and not subject to claims of Truth nor proof nor knowledge from the human perspective.

Your dancing around any substantive evidence that supports your claim of proof of truth presenting only subjective claims based on ancient tribal texts, which like the Bible and Tanach remain representative of literal conflicts and diverse beliefs divided into many conflicting division in the belif systems.

It is up to you to present any objective evidence to support your illusive claims of 'proof' of truth that your claims of belief are any different from the many other diverse conflicting beliefs based on ancient tribal literature without providence proof of a reliable source.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The facts remain, IF God exists, his ultimate nature and existence is unknowable from the human perspective and not subject to claims of Truth nor proof nor knowledge from the human perspective.

Your dancing around any substantive evidence that supports your claim of proof of truth presenting only subjective claims based on ancient tribal texts, which like the Bible and Tanach remain representative of literal conflicts and diverse beliefs divided into many conflicting division in the belif systems.

It is up to you to present any objective evidence to support your illusive claims of 'proof' of truth that your claims of belief are any different from the many other diverse conflicting beliefs based on ancient tribal literature without providence proof of a reliable source.

If God exists, he is the truth by which you can see who you are and others for who and what they are. If God doesn't exist, we are a corrupted falsehood with no basis.
 
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