• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Godless is lack of Virtues.

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
God is likened to the Sun, the source of light and life.

Thus Godless is the exact opposite, it is darkness and death.

So from a faith perspective, Godliness is being made alive in the light of God which is all the virtues.

In that context, a person of faith is to look for the light, from no matter where it shines, but most importantly become the light that is life itself and build lasting connections in family communities and Nations.

A person with no faith must then choose virtue over vice for their own reasons, but there is no disputing, virtues make the person and create harmony, whereas vices tear apart people, families, communities and Nations.

In that way, humanity can find a unity in its diversity.

View attachment 61678


So how do we promote virtues over vices, to an extent that war is no longer considered or tolerated?

Regards Tony
It somewhat seems like you're trying to say that you'd like to apply the term "godly" as a supplantation of the term "virtuous." That's an injection of bias and utterly unnecessary, when we already have a neutral, impartial term to apply to the virtuous, and that is (drum roll please) "virtuous."

In the end I'm just not sure how the shifting of terms like this helps what you then go on to state is supposedly your true and beloved cause here - that of uniting all peoples into a virtuous (no, I certainly will not be using the term "godly" here, thanks very much for the rather dastardly advice) society.

I do understand that you at least acknowledge that a non-believer can be virtuous, but you seem to do so grudgingly as an afterthought to an idea that definitely gets higher billing. That being that you equate the godless with darkness and death, and the godly with virtue. Do you believe it virtuous of you to make such an equation to a group that you still must admit anyway can be virtuous?
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
So?

X being likened to Y doesn't entail that not-X is the opposite of Y. First, you'd have to establish that the likening is correct. Second, you have to establish that being not-X entails not-Y.

You can't just assert these things.


The "All virtues" claim doesn't follow from "Made alive in the light". It's an empty assertion; and a deepity at that.

"In that context"? You mean if someone accepts your assertions.

Surely there is a sub-forum for sermonizing.

And, IME, the godless have every bit as much virtue as any so-called 'godly'

Good post, like your avatar as well.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
God is likened to the Sun, the source of light and life.

Thus Godless is the exact opposite, it is darkness and death.

As clear an example of a circular reasoning fallacy as one could wish for.

A person with no faith must then choose virtue over vice for their own reasons

They are subjective ideas, we all decide for ourselves what they are.

there is no disputing, virtues make the person and create harmony,

Since morality is subjective this is not telling us much, it is a rather cryptic, subjective, and woolly platitude.

whereas vices tear apart people, families, communities and Nations.

Again what is moral is entirely subjective, so you'd need to offer more than a vapid woolly platitude, before anyone can offer a cogent response.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Godless is "lack of virtues."

God is likened to the Sun, the source of light and life.

Thus Godless is the exact opposite, it is darkness and death.

So from a faith perspective, Godliness is being made alive in the light of God which is all the virtues.

In that context, a person of faith is to look for the light, from no matter where it shines, but most importantly become the light that is life itself and build lasting connections in family communities and Nations.

A person with no faith must then choose virtue over vice for their own reasons, but there is no disputing, virtues make the person and create harmony, whereas vices tear apart people, families, communities and Nations.

In that way, humanity can find a unity in its diversity.

View attachment 61678


So how do we promote virtues over vices, to an extent that war is no longer considered or tolerated?

Regards Tony

WHAT DOES GOD WANT US TO DO?

The bible says that Christ will have a 2nd coming, with a tongue like a sword. This means that Christ will repremand us for killing (wars hastily conceived without proof of terrorism, and torture camps), ignoring the hoards of homeless, wrecking God's environment, making people feel unsafe due to war, etc.

Christ will have a 2nd coming, but remember, Christ was crucified the first time He was here. Christ will fair no better in His 2nd coming.

The Cancel Culture will kick Christ off of the forums, claiming that Christ doesn't follow Christ (Himself). The Cancel Culture thinks that it has more power than God (all-knowing and all-powerful creator of everything). Facebook prevented President Trump from posting. Facebook just lost hundreds of billions of dollars overnight, due to the public realizing that the Cancel Culture is wrong and bad.

Christ will repremand the Catholic church for having and hiding child molesting priests, and moving them to other parishes where they will rape more innocent little boys, and then declaring bankruptcy to prevent their innocent rape victims from getting just compensation.

The Catholic church has continued raping innocent little boys because they say that anyone who complains (as Christ will complain when he makes his 2nd coming) is against the Catholic church, and therefore blasphemous.

Notice how the devil keeps doing devilish things and convinces everyone not to stop him?

Does the Cancel Culture think that they can ban God from forums? Does the Cancel Culture think that they can continue letting child molesting priests continue to molest little boys and hush up their crimes by cancelling them off of social media?

Lets not confuse "doing the right thing" (objecting to child molesting priests) with the "normal function of Christianity). Complaining about abuses by the clergy is not the same thing as blasphemy. Fixing abuses by clergy is not the same as harming the church or harming religion, or harming God.

God has chosen modern prophets to warn us not to attack Iraq (no one listened to them). God has also chosen modern people to say the things that Christ will say when he comes for His 2nd coming. But, when they do, they will be banned for criticizing Christian churches. This is because the Cancel Culture has conflated "stopping rape" with "blasphemy."

We are now living in the end times (because mankind defied God's warnings in Revelation and attacked Iraq). We will all die. As times get tougher, those who don't believe strongly will lose faith. This is why God has chosen some human helpers to strengthen faith by discussing it. Many will not realize that God has ordered these discussions to strengthen faith, and they will think that those who criticise weak reasoning are against religion. Actually, they are for faith, and working for God to strengthen it, at the request of God.

FIXING EVILS:

We have to discuss it to fix it. God wants us to discuss it.


We can't follow every person to hell who has a doctorate in theology. We can't follow Reverend John Hagee to hell as he tells us that we have to pray to "Jesus" (he means Christ) to kill more effectively in Iraq to win the war.

The road to heaven is a very lonely path, and we can't follow the knowledgeable to heaven if they don't have the understanding and soul to make it there. We have to read the bible ourselves and make decisions in our own life.

When we read the bible, and the bible says "thou shalt not kill" we have to decide for ourselves if that means that we have to win the war in Iraq by killing more. Most people lack the faith to understand that God wants "no war, no more."

If everyone was peaceful, the whole world would be peaceful and productive. No one would fear bombs and torture camps.

Sadly, if we don't stop the expansion of dictators (who would bomb their own people for power), we would let evil take over the world. This is why there are wars.

What would the world be like if Hitler took power, and every Jew, Black, and the handicapped was murdered in Gas chambers (after first being tortured and starved)? Would still more people become the victims, or would the people rise up and rebel? Or, would a new leader eventually take over and be benign?

God says "thou shalt not kill," so, if you are a person of faith, you would have to assume that God sees the future and realizes that a person like Hitler would eventually lose power and eventually the world would get better.

President George W. Bush called us "chickens," in effect. He used terms like "cut and run," and "these colors (red, white, and blue) don't run." This motivated the US to war.

It takes courage to be at peace, especially while someone is calling us chickens.

We need courage and faith to follow God.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Thus Godless is the exact opposite, it is darkness and death.
A bit harsh ...
A person with no faith must then choose virtue over vice for their own reasons
Not that hard, I think. We've evolved to have capacities for love and decency ─ and of course other capacities, but that's not front stage here.
virtues make the person and create harmony, whereas vices tear apart people, families, communities and Nations.
Decency, respect, inclusion. I'm all for it, though I'm not holding my breath.
So how do we promote virtues over vices, to an extent that war is no longer considered or tolerated?
I think we begin by addressing our deep-grained tribalism, (though I admit that'd be tough on sports teams). That's the "inclusion" part I mentioned above.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So if half the thread agree that you are the prejudiced one, they are prejudiced. If only people were as objective as you.



And if they agree that your words don't mean what you think they do, they are the ones who are wrong. If only people were more literate.



How is that possible if godlessness is a lack of virtue? I'm godless, which incidentally, I consider a virtue, but to you, I lack virtue. I am the darkness, and forever doomed to it unless I can find a means to forget that I require evidence to believe, and become godded like you and the other virtuous people.

This is the second thread from you in recent weeks that I've seen go south from page one. You will continue to to be criticized for your bigoted views of the "godless" for as long as this thread continues, just like the last one. And your religion will take another hit for it. You want others to see it as a beautiful thing, and perhaps be drawn to it, but is that realistic given the responses you are getting here?

It is the light it is read in, as All it is saying is

Godliness = Virtues = Light

Godless = Lack of Virtues = Lack of light.

It in now way says that an Athiest is Godless = Lack of Virtues = Lack of light, so why have you taken it that way? Please explain.

It offers it is a choice for all people faith or no faith to choose Godliness = Virtues = Light, all meaning the same thing, for a person of faith, it means Virtues, an Athiest may only want to consider that Virtues = Light.

Regards Tony
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
The basic scientific intelligent human says a human is the human we are all the same but nation DNA human is expressed is determined by the God O planet ground you stand on.

Respect all humans holy in their nation.

Owns the correct human natural human family... family is equal truth.

As no machines no thesis no greed no resources for said machine exists relative to O God the earth fused mass.

All problems caused by human designer inventors our truth.

Not O God the earth natural life support.
Not gods volcanic mass gas heavens history.

Just humans who know both reactive bodies in nature are as the destructive God.....by humans storytelling.

So humans teaching God can hurt you tell stories about the planet.

No human owns any excuse for hurting any other human as we aren't the planet or the heavens.

So any fabled story cannot be accepted by human family intelligence as a stated place to reunite humans by a correct earth science preaching.

About misappropriated human behaviours and beliefs. About planetary and heavens conditions.

With intention as they had in the past. If you theory looking back know it's only about machine invention and machine inventive resourcing.

A long history of humans chosen technology abuses that caused artificial human reasoning. Fake stories.

To question is the type of invention a safe practice on earth in natural life by a world community. Not just by some controlling rich men in trade.

Is a place to start reasoning with the humans national family...representative by nation not by country.

As we know the human nation family DNA is mis represented in world choices.

If we live on the land in a mixed culture then we do. Yet we all own a nation's historical parent.

If the nation's parent has now diversified then the land nation should allow it's land humanity. Community vote in world leadership from the country they now inhabit also.

To empower the human responsibility in land preservation and human lifestyles.

Hence many multi countries families would be given the inherited cause of living supporting Multi culturalism. In its correct human identity.

No human owns earth we all share living on it.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
God is likened to the Sun, the source of light and life.

Thus Godless is the exact opposite, it is darkness and death.

So from a faith perspective, Godliness is being made alive in the light of God which is all the virtues.

In that context, a person of faith is to look for the light, from no matter where it shines, but most importantly become the light that is life itself and build lasting connections in family communities and Nations.

A person with no faith must then choose virtue over vice for their own reasons, but there is no disputing, virtues make the person and create harmony, whereas vices tear apart people, families, communities and Nations.

In that way, humanity can find a unity in its diversity.

View attachment 61678


So how do we promote virtues over vices, to an extent that war is no longer considered or tolerated?

Regards Tony
Bearing false witness and deliberately misrepresenting an entire group of people I would say is based in at least loose and flexible morality. So are you partially godless yourself for trying to say the godless really aren't godless and open up the floodgates of No True Scot with "except those who don't behave as I approve"?
Atheists aren't religious, they aren't theistic. They just don't believe.
And how do we instill "war isn't good"? We get rid of religions and religious teachings that teach of concepts such as blasphemy, apostasy, one true truth, sin and righteousness, us vs them, demons and devils and other superstitious nonsense people kill over. Of course there are other reasons, but historically speaking religion is a top killer.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
A bit harsh ...

It is just a well known spiritual metephor.

Light is life, darkness is death.

Another way of saying heaven and hell.

Virtues are light and light, vices are lack of that light, and complete lack of virtues is darkness, death.

The metephor takes on clarity in this world by observing how virtues and vices effect human interactions in this material plain.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Bearing false witness and deliberately misrepresenting an entire group of people I would say is based in at least loose and flexible morality. So are you partially godless yourself for trying to say the godless really aren't godless and open up the floodgates of No True Scot with "except those who don't behave as I approve"?
Atheists aren't religious, they aren't theistic. They just don't believe.
And how do we instill "war isn't good"? We get rid of religions and religious teachings that teach of concepts such as blasphemy, apostasy, one true truth, sin and righteousness, us vs them, demons and devils and other superstitious nonsense people kill over. Of course there are other reasons, but historically speaking religion is a top killer.

You also have a misunderstanding of what was posted.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Again what is moral is entirely subjective, so you'd need to offer more than a vapid woolly platitude, before anyone can offer a cogent response

It is quite easy to define some virtues. Morality is a by-product of some virtues.

We can use the easy Ones.

Love the apex of virtues, hate the opposite

Love is light, hate is death.

That is the simplicity of the OP. It is simply stating every person has the chance to Love of Hate.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It somewhat seems like you're trying to say that you'd like to apply the term "godly" as a supplantation of the term "virtuous." That's an injection of bias and utterly unnecessary, when we already have a neutral, impartial term to apply to the virtuous, and that is (drum roll please) "virtuous."

Sorry, not sure if I have replied.

It is but a metephor. In Holy Books, this metephor is given often, it is a fundamental teaching.

The OP is saying that people with faith do not have a monopoly on virtues and that people are not defined by what they call themselves.

Yet to date, mosly every Athiest posting here have taken it in the wrong light. There were a couple of souls that noted it in the right context.

Example - I meet and athiest, they are naught but virtue.

I would see them as Virtuous, I would see them as the light of light, I would see them as the aim of Godliness.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Then you may need to reword it as the problem seems to be the message has not been clearly conveyed if many are misunderstanding.

The first part was explaining a Metephor. People could ask what that means, instead of concluding it was aimed at an insult, as I offer nothing I post is aimed at an insult, just topics for deeper consideration

I then offered that a person of faith will implement the light of Virtue, understanding it as an act of Godliness, a source of light to guide our lives, that is their reason.

It was then offered that, "A person with no faith must then choose virtue over vice for their own reasons, but there is no disputing, virtues make the person and create harmony, whereas vices tear apart people, families, communities and Nations."

In that way, humanity can find a unity in its diversity.




So how do we promote virtues over vices, to an extent that war is no longer considered or tolerated?"

So was the issue in the way people read it, or not? I was never the best at English.

Regards Tony
 

Vitality

Member
The notion that only those who believe in a god or gods can be virtuous is ridiculous and simply incorrect. Are you unfamiliar with virtue ethics or secular morality? Defining what is good or bad does not depend on faith or religion. Period. Not accepting blind faith in divinity does not equate to being inherently wrong or bad - or lacking virtuosity. The reasoning used by non-believers to define virtues may differ from faith based perspectives, but the fundamental principles are quite similar.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
God is likened to the Sun, the source of light and life.

Thus Godless is the exact opposite, it is darkness and death.

So from a faith perspective, Godliness is being made alive in the light of God which is all the virtues.

In that context, a person of faith is to look for the light, from no matter where it shines, but most importantly become the light that is life itself and build lasting connections in family communities and Nations.

A person with no faith must then choose virtue over vice for their own reasons, but there is no disputing, virtues make the person and create harmony, whereas vices tear apart people, families, communities and Nations.

In that way, humanity can find a unity in its diversity.

View attachment 61678


So how do we promote virtues over vices, to an extent that war is no longer considered or tolerated?

Regards Tony

Nice preaching for the gallery. But no facts based on anything, rational or empirical.

There is no indication anywhere that just because someone lacks faith in God it's "darkness and death". It's absurd. If this is what the Bahai faith teaches, I am absolutely disappointed.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
It's My Birthday!
And, IME, the godless have every bit as much virtue as any so-called 'godly'
Let me quote from a Baha'i source what is "ungodly":

M E M O R A N D U M

To: The Universal House of Justice
Date: 10 September 2001

From: Research Department

Definition of the Word "Ungodly"

In their letter dated 1 June 2001 to the Universal House of Justice, Miss … and Miss … enquire about the meaning of the word "ungodly" as it is used in the following passage from the Hidden Words, and more generally in the Bahá'í Writings:

O Son of Dust!

Beware! Walk not with the ungodly and seek not fellowship with him, for such companionship turneth the radiance of the heart into infernal fire.1

Specifically, Miss … and Miss … seek clarification concerning "who and what is considered ‘ungodly'". The Research Department has studied these issues, and we provide the following comments.

By way of introduction, we wish to note that the Research Department has not, to date, been able to locate in the Writings of the Faith either an authoritative interpretation of the verse cited above, or a detailed definition of the Bahá'í concept of "ungodliness". We note, however, that Bahá'u'lláh appears to link the decline of religion to the rise in the influence of the "ungodly". He states, for example:

Religion is verily the chief instrument for the establishment of order in the world and of tranquillity amongst its peoples. The weakening of the pillars of religion hath strengthened the foolish and emboldened them and made them more arrogant. Verily I say: The greater the decline of religion, the more grievous the waywardness of the ungodly. This cannot but lead in the end to chaos and confusion.

The Universal House of Justice in a letter dated 10 March 1983 written on its behalf to an individual believer seeking a definition of "ungodliness" relates the concept of "ungodliness" to the Persian Hidden Words number 3 and quotes Shoghi Effendi's interpretation of this particular verse:

In response to your letter received on 6 March seeking from the Universal House of Justice a definition of "ungodliness", we have been directed to quote the following passage found on page 200 of "Dawn of a New Day", a compilation of letters written on behalf of the beloved Guardian to the National Spiritual Assembly of the Bahá'ís of India:

In the passage "eschew all fellowship with the ungodly", Bahá'u'lláh means that we should shun the company of those who disbelieve in God and are wayward. The word "ungodly" is a reference to such perverse people.

With reference to Shoghi Effendi's clarification quoted above, it may also be helpful to note that dictionary definitions of "wayward" include "childishly self-willed or perverse, capricious" and "unaccountable"; and the definition of "perverse" includes "stubbornly departing from what is reasonable", "persistent in error", "perverted" and "wicked". In the context of the Persian Hidden Words, number 3, then, the phrase "ungodly" apparently refers to a broad range of behaviors including those associated with Covenant-breaking.

Regarding a criteria for determining "who and what is considered ‘ungodly'", Miss … and Miss … are encouraged to reach their own understanding based on the guidance in the verses from the Hidden Words and other statements in the Writings of the Faith. To assist them in thinking about this issue, we provide, below, the following extract from a letter dated 5 April 1995 written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer:

… in choosing one's close companions, one is advised that one should not include among them those individuals who are "ungodly"—that is to say whose attitudes and lives are directed in a way that is contrary to God and His Teachings—or, as indicated in the Kitáb-i-Íqán, those people who are boastful and worldly.

Sorry, this is harder to understand outside a Baha'i context. In other words to me word "ungodly" is hard to define. This does not deny that atheists can have virtues in my view. The words "disbelieve in god" are not really addressed directly, but in light of the further words "and are wayward" this casts a different light on those words, as does also the words "boastful and worldly" This reference is from this:

He should treasure the companionship of them that have renounced the world, and regard avoidance of boastful and worldly people a precious benefit.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 265)

This is the equivalent to this to me:

Treasure the companionship of the righteous and eschew all fellowship with the ungodly.
(Baha'u'llah, The Persian Hidden Words)


 
Top