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Is government a byproduct of our sinful nature?

an anarchist

Your local anarchist.
Government seems inevitable. Every time a group of humans are offered a choice between government and no government, it seems that a government is formed.
I am of the opinion that government is inherently evil and sinful. From my Christian perspective, it seems that the Bible is anti government rather than pro government. I think the book of Judges is a demonstration of this thematic material, as well as some parts of Samuel.
Is the Bible Anarchist?
from a Christian perspective, humanity is sinful. Society is sinful. Do you suppose if Adam and Eve never sinned, that they would’ve made a government? I don’t think so. I think sin is a prerequisite for government. What is government? Is it not just a group of individuals exerting sinful control over others lives and resources? I don’t consent to a government dictating my life, I believe the individuals in government who are dictating my life are in sin because they do not have my consent.
Is government a byproduct of our sinful nature?
 

The Hammer

[REDACTED]
Premium Member
Government seems inevitable. Every time a group of humans are offered a choice between government and no government, it seems that a government is formed.
I am of the opinion that government is inherently evil and sinful. From my Christian perspective, it seems that the Bible is anti government rather than pro government. I think the book of Judges is a demonstration of this thematic material, as well as some parts of Samuel.
Is the Bible Anarchist?
from a Christian perspective, humanity is sinful. Society is sinful. Do you suppose if Adam and Eve never sinned, that they would’ve made a government? I don’t think so. I think sin is a prerequisite for government. What is government? Is it not just a group of individuals exerting sinful control over others lives and resources? I don’t consent to a government dictating my life, I believe the individuals in government who are dictating my life are in sin because they do not have my consent.
Is government a byproduct of our sinful nature?

In response to the Title question, no.

It's a matter of necessity as a group grows in size.

"The cultural anthropologist Elman Service devised a model in 1962 for classifying human societies into four general categories—bands, tribes, chiefdoms, and states—based on their capacity to support larger populations at higher densities."

As we move up through those classifications, the workings of govt begin to take shape until we see it's full realization at the State level. Nothing to do with sin imo, and everything to do with moving resources (including people) and keeping the group on task (which varies based on Culture).
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Government seems inevitable. Every time a group of humans are offered a choice between government and no government, it seems that a government is formed.
I am of the opinion that government is inherently evil and sinful. From my Christian perspective, it seems that the Bible is anti government rather than pro government. I think the book of Judges is a demonstration of this thematic material, as well as some parts of Samuel.
Is the Bible Anarchist?
from a Christian perspective, humanity is sinful. Society is sinful. Do you suppose if Adam and Eve never sinned, that they would’ve made a government? I don’t think so. I think sin is a prerequisite for government. What is government? Is it not just a group of individuals exerting sinful control over others lives and resources? I don’t consent to a government dictating my life, I believe the individuals in government who are dictating my life are in sin because they do not have my consent.
Is government a byproduct of our sinful nature?
I could never understand how so few people can rule so many and its allowed.

I think, as I get older still, the less and less I care about government.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Government seems inevitable. Every time a group of humans are offered a choice between government and no government, it seems that a government is formed.
I am of the opinion that government is inherently evil and sinful. From my Christian perspective, it seems that the Bible is anti government rather than pro government. I think the book of Judges is a demonstration of this thematic material, as well as some parts of Samuel.
Is the Bible Anarchist?
from a Christian perspective, humanity is sinful. Society is sinful. Do you suppose if Adam and Eve never sinned, that they would’ve made a government? I don’t think so. I think sin is a prerequisite for government. What is government? Is it not just a group of individuals exerting sinful control over others lives and resources? I don’t consent to a government dictating my life, I believe the individuals in government who are dictating my life are in sin because they do not have my consent.
Is government a byproduct of our sinful nature?
How are Judges and Samuel anti-government? In Judges, each tribe has its own government, typically tribal elders and on occasion a judge or two, who is usually a regional leader.
In Samuel we find the return of a group of national elders, not found since the time of Joshua. We also still find judges, on a more nation-wide scale. At best you could argue that Judges is maybe anti-centralized government and that loose treaties between sub-groups are best, but I think there's enough evidence from the book against that. In Samuel you might be able to argue that it's anti-monarchies, but again - that's more momentary. It has a lot of meaning to be sure, but momentary nonetheless. The theme changes quickly.
 

an anarchist

Your local anarchist.
How are Judges and Samuel anti-government? In Judges, each tribe has its own government, typically tribal elders and on occasion a judge or two, who is usually a regional leader.
In Samuel we find the return of a group of national elders, not found since the time of Joshua. We also still find judges, on a more nation-wide scale. At best you could argue that Judges is maybe anti-centralized government and that loose treaties between sub-groups are best, but I think there's enough evidence from the book against that. In Samuel you might be able to argue that it's anti-monarchies, but again - that's more momentary. It has a lot of meaning to be sure, but momentary nonetheless. The theme changes quickly.
Judges 21:25 this is often said in the book of Judges. I think it implies a decentralized state.
2 Samuel 24 I think is the strongest argument for an anti government sentiment. One scholarly book on the books of Samuel suppose multiple sources for Samuel, one pro monarchy, and the other anti monarchy. The themes of 2 Samuel appear to be anti conscription and anti taxation, as that was the purpose of the census. God was angry with the King for taking a census of the people. Thematically, isn’t this anti government? I think so. I’m possibly making a leap of logic, but to me it makes sense.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Government seems inevitable. Every time a group of humans are offered a choice between government and no government, it seems that a government is formed.
I am of the opinion that government is inherently evil and sinful. From my Christian perspective, it seems that the Bible is anti government rather than pro government. I think the book of Judges is a demonstration of this thematic material, as well as some parts of Samuel.
Is the Bible Anarchist?
from a Christian perspective, humanity is sinful. Society is sinful. Do you suppose if Adam and Eve never sinned, that they would’ve made a government? I don’t think so. I think sin is a prerequisite for government. What is government? Is it not just a group of individuals exerting sinful control over others lives and resources? I don’t consent to a government dictating my life, I believe the individuals in government who are dictating my life are in sin because they do not have my consent.
Is government a byproduct of our sinful nature?
Man has dominated man to his harm. Ecclesiastes 8:9 Because it does not belong to man who is walking, to direct his own steps. Jeremiah 10:23
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Judges 21:25 this is often said in the book of Judges. I think it implies a decentralized state
Never forget the context. That statement is always brought in Judges to show what bad things happen when there isn't a centralized monarchy.
2 Samuel 24 I think is the strongest argument for an anti government sentiment
This I don't understand. Again, context. What led to that event? And what happened at the end of the chapter?
One scholarly book on the books of Samuel suppose multiple sources for Samuel, one pro monarchy, and the other anti monarchy. The themes of 2 Samuel appear to be anti conscription and anti taxation, as that was the purpose of the census. God was angry with the King for taking a census of the people. Thematically, isn’t this anti government? I think so. I’m possibly making a leap of logic, but to me it makes sense.
As I already said, at best you could argue anti-monarchy, but there's no way to argue anti-government as a whole. Because I could bring you many verses to show that there were always leaders in Israel. If you want a list, remind me tomorrow because it's late here.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
I could never understand how so few people can rule so many and its allowed.

I think, as I get older still, the less and less I care about government.
Oh, yeah, I think it would be so much fun without government. Rules of the road, would change every few miles, so while driving safely in one area, you may find yourself with a giant ticket just down the road. And train travel, could it get any better than having to change trains every 10 miles across the country, as track gauge changes from area to area?

Why, when out for a trip, you might have to take dozens of sets of clothing to meet the dress codes along the way. And don't bother packing a picnic -- food and eating rules will change around every 3rd corner.

Sure, great fun.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Government seems inevitable. Every time a group of humans are offered a choice between government and no government, it seems that a government is formed.
I am of the opinion that government is inherently evil and sinful. From my Christian perspective, it seems that the Bible is anti government rather than pro government. I think the book of Judges is a demonstration of this thematic material, as well as some parts of Samuel.
Is the Bible Anarchist?
from a Christian perspective, humanity is sinful. Society is sinful. Do you suppose if Adam and Eve never sinned, that they would’ve made a government? I don’t think so. I think sin is a prerequisite for government. What is government? Is it not just a group of individuals exerting sinful control over others lives and resources? I don’t consent to a government dictating my life, I believe the individuals in government who are dictating my life are in sin because they do not have my consent.
Is government a byproduct of our sinful nature?
I've always felt that Jesus was advising his followers to stay out of worldly politics.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I don't agree with the OP frame-of-reference but there's a point I agree with.

In the current dark age when egoism manifesting as greed, selfishness and so forth are so much in evidence, quite a bit of government is the consequence to restrain untrammeled expression of those lower desires.

Some government such as road building to dealing with natural disasters will continue to exist after the new era dawns but a lot will naturally fall away as no longer being needed.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
it seems that the Bible is anti government rather than pro government.

Well, there is the saying in the gospels to 'give to caesar what is caesar's,' and paul states that state power is from god. As well, god shows that he 'control a pharaoh's heart,' and that basically 'bad things and good things' come from him, which would then implicitly include things done through the means of state power. As to what is said in samuel and judges, it seems clear there that god espoused a model of government opposed to what the people eventually wanted, which is that they wanted a monarch.

God wanted them to stick with judges, if I remember, though it had been many years since I read that section of the bible. And he wanted to allow them to access god's will through a priest caste system, where they would figure out by approaching the ark in a certain religiously sound manner. That's a rough explanation of it, but again, I haven't looked at those particular stories in years.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Government seems inevitable. Every time a group of humans are offered a choice between government and no government, it seems that a government is formed.
I am of the opinion that government is inherently evil and sinful. From my Christian perspective, it seems that the Bible is anti government rather than pro government. I think the book of Judges is a demonstration of this thematic material, as well as some parts of Samuel.
Is the Bible Anarchist?
from a Christian perspective, humanity is sinful. Society is sinful. Do you suppose if Adam and Eve never sinned, that they would’ve made a government? I don’t think so. I think sin is a prerequisite for government. What is government? Is it not just a group of individuals exerting sinful control over others lives and resources? I don’t consent to a government dictating my life, I believe the individuals in government who are dictating my life are in sin because they do not have my consent.
Is government a byproduct of our sinful nature?
My quick answer without reading everything is yes. Definitely yes.

Please, might I reserve the right to change my mind about it all?
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Government seems inevitable. Every time a group of humans are offered a choice between government and no government, it seems that a government is formed.
I am of the opinion that government is inherently evil and sinful. From my Christian perspective, it seems that the Bible is anti government rather than pro government. I think the book of Judges is a demonstration of this thematic material, as well as some parts of Samuel.
Is the Bible Anarchist?
from a Christian perspective, humanity is sinful. Society is sinful. Do you suppose if Adam and Eve never sinned, that they would’ve made a government? I don’t think so. I think sin is a prerequisite for government. What is government? Is it not just a group of individuals exerting sinful control over others lives and resources? I don’t consent to a government dictating my life, I believe the individuals in government who are dictating my life are in sin because they do not have my consent.
Is government a byproduct of our sinful nature?

Government is a waypoint, neither the end goal nor the beginning. It is like the path Israel takes to leave Egypt. It is the wilderness, and we are all stuck in it going round and round until those die off who must. The L-RD would have us all be free, guided by morality rather than by gods. Government is a compromise between the freedom the L-RD offers and the path of complete control that the gods proffer. It is also the court in which the fate of humanity is being decided.

The L-RD wants people to be free, but people are internally undefined and grieve the L-RD with our violence. By 'Undefined' I mean that it is unclear whether we are a creation which ought to be destroyed, and this is unclear to the L-RD, to the gods and to ourselves. This is the question that is referred to in the flood story about Noah, because it tells us that if humanity is to be saved then war must end.

The scriptures put forth a case against humanity. What are we internally and in the long run? There is a prosecutor and a defender. Are we good or evil? Christianity defines itself in the context of this question, this case. It is what the NT authors discuss, but they put forth Christianity as a new creation or a new format in which to judge the case. They hope Christianity will replace all need for any government.

How can humanity, with all of our evil wars, be worth preserving? You put the old ways of violence behind you. Instead of killing, you use reason, patience and other spiritual virtues. This is similar to a Buddhist approach, also; because a Buddhist rejects their human aspects when they embrace nothingness. To this degree the two religions share something in common: a judgement against the flesh and against the passions. If people join in this way and choose to leave violence behind, then we become part of a creation which is judged worthy to continue.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
I no longer believe that God didn’t want government. Samuel didn’t want his meal ticket taken. Samson blows the theory that judges were better out of the water.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Government seems inevitable. Every time a group of humans are offered a choice between government and no government, it seems that a government is formed.
I am of the opinion that government is inherently evil and sinful. From my Christian perspective, it seems that the Bible is anti government rather than pro government. I think the book of Judges is a demonstration of this thematic material, as well as some parts of Samuel.
Is the Bible Anarchist?
from a Christian perspective, humanity is sinful. Society is sinful. Do you suppose if Adam and Eve never sinned, that they would’ve made a government? I don’t think so. I think sin is a prerequisite for government. What is government? Is it not just a group of individuals exerting sinful control over others lives and resources? I don’t consent to a government dictating my life, I believe the individuals in government who are dictating my life are in sin because they do not have my consent.
Is government a byproduct of our sinful nature?

Nope, government is a byproduct of our social nature. As social animals we are required to cooperate in order to survive. Government is the means by which individuals cooperate in a society. Even if every single human being was free of any 'sin' (whatever that means) we would still need a government to make basic decisions, such as how fast the speed limit should be and where we should install traffic lights. Just because there are evil and wicked people who get involved in government does not make government inherently bad. No society could survive without some form of government.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Government seems inevitable. Every time a group of humans are offered a choice between government and no government, it seems that a government is formed.
I am of the opinion that government is inherently evil and sinful. From my Christian perspective, it seems that the Bible is anti government rather than pro government. I think the book of Judges is a demonstration of this thematic material, as well as some parts of Samuel.
Is the Bible Anarchist?
from a Christian perspective, humanity is sinful. Society is sinful. Do you suppose if Adam and Eve never sinned, that they would’ve made a government? I don’t think so. I think sin is a prerequisite for government. What is government? Is it not just a group of individuals exerting sinful control over others lives and resources? I don’t consent to a government dictating my life, I believe the individuals in government who are dictating my life are in sin because they do not have my consent.
Is government a byproduct of our sinful nature?
Well we will eventually be governed by God.
But government is necessary, anarchy is not a workable solution. People are evil and need laws.
 

an anarchist

Your local anarchist.
If you want a list, remind me tomorrow because it's late here.
The leaders of Israel in the Bible, for the most part they were appointed by God Himself or a prophet from God. With the Judges, God made it crystal clear who He chose. God was with the ancient Israelites. He talked to them plainly and appointed rulers plainly. The situation of today is much different. We don’t have God directly appointing rulers. I think if we don’t have God doing it, we don’t have a right ourselves to appoint rulers. imo
 
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