Hope for things which are not seen.

[Clara Tea]

A good birth with loving parents, a fulfilled life, a peaceful death. It doesn't get much better than that.
I've never been able to work it out. Either it's Paul's earth with evergrowing billions of dead standing on top of each other (their nourishment and sanitary requirements are rather obscure), or it's a disembodied spirit with no means of sensory input, or memory, or generating emotions, or its an over-the-rainbow autarchic "kingdom" of some kind, or it's the heavily male-oriented Muslim heaven somewhere. The main elements seem to be pleasure, eternity, no say in government, and minimal intellectual content (though perhaps the Jewish heaven has something of the kind?).

I'm content, when my time's up, just to get out of the way, the same as everyone else has done or will do.

Muslim women in heaven....72 of us have to be virgins and serve one soul? What kind of heaven is that?

Christian heaven....I have original sin (didn't do any sin myself, but I got stuck with it). So, I don't deserve any better than this.

Jewish heaven....create a religion for Christians to follow, and give them a guilt trip about original sin--revenge at last.

 

[Clara Tea]

Again, nothing to do with " choosing" to believe-
unless one is successful at self deception.

Since 99x10 to the 50th or so of everything
is unknowable, I think we all find ways to
just live our lives without knowing.

When i want to know, I make an effort
to learn.

Im not a researcher, but its the essence of science; scientists chose their profession because they are curious people who to
discover things.

How anyone can be satisfied to just choose a made up* " answer" is beyond me.

* assuming that even one " revealed" answer
is correct, that leaves the 99x10 to the
whatever of answers that are just fantasy.
Choose one! Then say you believe it!
Sorryah, not for me.

Every time we leave the house we venture into the unknown. Accident? Meet interesting person? The best advice is go boldly where no man has gone before (oh, wait....that's Star Trek).

 

[YoursTrue]

Muslim women in heaven....72 of us have to be virgins and serve one soul? What kind of heaven is that?

Christian heaven....I have original sin (didn't do any sin myself, but I got stuck with it). So, I don't deserve any better than this.

Jewish heaven....create a religion for Christians to follow, and give them a guilt trip about original sin--revenge at last.

lol, I understand your first two statements, not that I necessarily agree, but the third about Jewish heaven? What does that mean re: creating a religion for Christians to follow, etc. Please explain.

 

[YoursTrue]

There will always be something to learn because mankind will never know all that God knows.
Thus we will never cease learning new things. - Ecclesiastes 3:11
Eden was a sample garden. God's purpose was that we expand that paradisical garden earth wide.
God has not abandoned His purpose for us.
Also, what healthy person wants to pick the day they want to die ______
So, I find under normal healthy conditions the answer would be no.
Eternity is in our hearts for each day we can think of we and think of a next day.
I never tire taking about my favorite foods.
I never tire of seeing favorite people. I always look forward to seeing favorite people.
As far as what we will do: a clue is found at Isaiah 65:21-25
It mentions we will build houses (plural). So, with inheriting the whole earth (Matthew 5:5) we could live various places on Earth and build a house wherever we move and so forth.

Yes--thinking about the earth and the things on it -- we hardly have scratched the surface of exploring things. Fabulous future to look forward to.

 

[YoursTrue]

Some argue that we already know death because before we were born we were not alive. Most people can't remember anything before they were born, and many have a hard time remembering early childhood.

I have a couple of memories (not too many) from my early childhood, that is prior to kindergarten. One is when I found a squeezy thing on the bathroom floor and brought it to my mother. She was horrified and got upset because I think she thought it was a mouse or something. I don't know, she never told me. On the other hand I have no memory of me being born. And certainly none about having been conceived.

 

[idea]

Some argue that we already know death because before we were born we were not alive. Most people can't remember anything before they were born, and many have a hard time remembering early childhood.

The atoms in our body were once part of stars. Our energy, once part of the living plants and animals we ate. Evaporation, convection, precipitation, collection - melting pot heaven.

 

[idea]

What would be the point of it?

What is the point of vacation?

 

[blü 2]

Muslim women in heaven....72 of us have to be virgins and serve one soul? What kind of heaven is that?

Someone closer to the matter will know better than I do, but my impression is that houris (the providers of this intimate service) are supernatural beings created for the work.

I wonder if martyred lesbian Muslims get their share?

Christian heaven....I have original sin (didn't do any sin myself, but I got stuck with it). So, I don't deserve any better than this.

'Original sin' is an entire misreading of the Garden story, which contains stark motherless nothing about sin, original sin, the fall of man, death entering the world, spiritual death, blah blah. Instead, if I recall correctly, it first arose among the Jews of Alexandria in the course of midrash (taking a passage from the Tanakh and inventing a new and extraordinary meaning for it) late in the second century BCE; Paul mentions it once, but it doesn't become toxic doctrine till Augustine of Hippo seizes on it around 500 CE. If you look at Genesis 3:22-23, you can read the only reason God gives for booting A&E out of the Garden.

Jewish heaven....create a religion for Christians to follow, and give them a guilt trip about original sin--revenge at last.

I've never looked into the topic to any depth, but as a matter of impression, the Jewish notion of heaven, at least as far as disclosed in the Tanakh, is rather elusive, with various elements like the ghost of Samuel called up to be consulted by the lady of Endor, the idea of death as the end as in eg Ecclesiastes, and the later idea of something maybe yet to come.

 

[wellwisher]

'Original sin' is an entire misreading of the Garden story, which contains stark motherless nothing about sin, original sin, the fall of man, death entering the world, spiritual death, blah blah.

Sin has a direct connection to the tree of knowledge of good and evil or law. As St Paul said, Sin is not imputed where there is no law. Sin only appears after a law appears. For example, in the USA, marijuana is legal in some states, but not all states. It is only a social sin where there is a law against it. In the states where there is no law against it, there is no social sin imputed for the exact same behavior. Knowledge of good and evil and law definers and creates sin. When Adam and Eve choose knowledge of good and evil, which defines good and evil behavior, via the law, sins appeared along with each new law created.

Original sin is connected to Adam and Eve choosing the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Although knowing good and evil allows one more capacity for safe choices, the down side was it also caused sin to appear. Sin was not imputed before they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and and evil law. If every law was revoked, there would no longer be any sin in the world, since sin is only imputed where there is law. There is a cause and affect between law; cause, and sin; affect.

For example, an animal relieving themselves in the woods is not a sin since it is part of the natural design of nature and instinct. it is not judged as right or wrong or good or evil to animals. It will become fertilizers for plants. If one of the Left Wing environmental groups lobbied to make this natural animal behavior against the law, such that the property owner closest to the act was made liable, this same natural behavior would now be a sin for the property owner. Nothing has changed, except humans have defined a good and evil or law for this particular behavior making sin appear where once there was no sin. Original sin created the basic schema where choosing law of good and evil; learned knowledge, over instinct, led to sin, since instinct does not impute sin.

There are Divine laws, which can also cause sin to appear, with the wage of sin death. Divine law has to do with objective laws, like the laws of physics. It is against the law of objective common sense to jump off your roof. This is not a subjective law, since this judgement is based on the objective laws of gravity. If you break this law, and decide to jump off the roof, you will sin in a way where the wage of sin is death. Death will come from the fall and then the sudden stop. Divine law is objective, based on logic and common sense, and applies to all humans.

Manmade law is often subjective and arbitrary and is often used to manipulate others with dual standards often appearing; divine right of kings. The elites are often above the law; sinless for the same behavior. Only the masses can sin, by definition, since sin is imputed only where there is law. If the law only applies to the masses only they can sin. A good example is perjury in the court of law. The witnesses can sin the sin of perjury, but the lawyers can lie and no sin is imputed. Lawyers and Judges are not required to swear on the bible, not to lie. That sin is only for the riff raff. Twitter can censor free speech based on biased laws that only apply to the Conservatives. This is not a sin for Twitter since they are above that law and sin is not imputed since they have no law. Law can become a tool for evil unless we use objective laws that apply to all.

There is a neurological explanation for this based on how the brain writes to memory. I have explained this in other posts.

 

[blü 2]

Sin has a direct connection to the tree of knowledge of good and evil or law. As St Paul said, Sin is not imputed where there is no law.

The reason I made the point is that regardless of Paul's or anyone else's opinion, there is NOTHING in the Garden story about sin, and God (at Genesis 3:22-23) states [his] ONLY reason for expelling Adam and Eve from the Garden. The idea of "original sin" appears to arise among the Jews of Alexandria (out of the midrash practice) late in the second century BCE.

Sin only appears after a law appears.

I'm not sure I agree with that. For something to be a sin, rather than a crime, infringement, trespass &c, it has to have the quality of being displeasing to God ─ and God plainly had no problem with eg Solomon having a harem or owning slaves. Or ordering Joshua to massacre the population of Jericho (and so on).

For example, in the USA, marijuana is legal in some states, but not all states. It is only a social sin where there is a law against it. In the states where there is no law against it, there is no social sin imputed for the exact same behavior.

Hmm. This may vary from person to person, but I don't associate any crime with sin in a social context.

Knowledge of good and evil and law definers and creates sin. When Adam and Eve choose knowledge of good and evil, which defines good and evil behavior, via the law, sins appeared along with each new law created.

No, that can't be right. At the moment Eve ate the fruit, she had no knowledge of good and evil, so she was incapable of forming an intention to do wrong, hence was incapable of sin. Exactly the same is true of Adam. And of course God never accuses them of sin ─ as I said above, sin is nowhere mentioned in the Garden story, and sin is no part of God's reasons for expelling them from the Garden.

Original sin is connected to Adam and Eve choosing the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Nothing of that is in the Garden story, and despite Paul's one mention of it, it was not even noticed in the early church until around 500 CE Augustine of Hippo suddenly thought it was a good idea. Odd that he never read the Garden story with any care before going down that track.

 

[Audie]

What is the point of vacation?

I was referring to motivation.
Anyone can paint unfinite masterpieces.
Nothing has any value or interest.
Everyone is the same wherever you go.
Sounds more like hell.

Vacation has to be FROM somethung, a break.
Some contrsst

Permanent unearned vacay?

You take it, i dont want it

 

[Audie]

The atoms in our body were once part of stars. Our energy, once part of the living plants and animals we ate. Evaporation, convection, precipitation, collection - melting pot heaven.

Every breath you take contains Hitler- fart.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

For what we cannot know - what comes after death, existence before birth, the origin and eternal destiny of all - what is the best-case scenerio? If you could define heaven, what would it be?

There seem to be two questions here: What is your hope for eternity following death, and what kind of heaven do you imagine.

I couldn't describe what kind of heaven I should hope for except from the context of having lived a lifetime on earth. So, my answer would be limited to the best of that experience: love, beauty, equanimity, freedom from shame and conflict, etc.. Answering now would sound like the answer a 5-year old might give if asked the same question: "I want lots of ice cream and no spankings."

More of this life would be fine, but for how long, and then what? So, my answer is that my hope for after death is to return to where I was before birth, that is, eternal unconsciousness. The thought of being forced to remain conscious without end inspires dread. It gives me great comfort to know that if life ever becomes too horrible to endure, death is available as an escape.

I look at it like this: If I could choose between eternal consciousness and eternal unconsciousness today not knowing what lay ahead, but knowing that once I chose consciousness, there was no way out, the choice is easy. There is no reward I can imagine worth gambling an eternity of something I want out of but am stuck in.

Hope for things not seen? Not immortality.

 

[idea]

I was referring to motivation.
Anyone can paint unfinite masterpieces.
Nothing has any value or interest.
Everyone is the same wherever you go.
Sounds more like hell.

Vacation has to be FROM somethung, a break.
Some contrsst

Permanent unearned vacay?

You take it, i dont want it

I do not think everyone would be the same - I think everyone would have different tastes in food, cloths, dance styles, art, recreational sports. Just as those who graduate from the same HS, or graduate with the same type of degree go on to very different careers, all-knowing, educated does not equal having the same hobbies, tastes, likes, interests. My hope for the perfect heaven would be a place of diversity, freedom, with full understanding between all - diversity without prejudice, diversity without misunderstanding or misrepresentation, diversity without hierarchy, diversity without supremacy.

 

[idea]

Every breath you take contains Hitler- fart.

We are all already connected I think, the behavior or lack of action by one changes others.

"Half of the refugees who fled South Vietnam in boats after the fall never made it to shore. Thich Nhat Hahn’s community at Plum Village in France received thousands of letters seeking help from people who made it to refugee camps. One day, they received a letter telling about a young girl on a small boat who was raped by a Thai pirate.

“She was only twelve, and she jumped into the ocean and drowned herself.
When you first learn of something like that, you get angry at the pirate. You naturally take the side of the girl. As you look more deeply you will see it differently. If you take the side of the little girl, then it is easy. You only have to take a gun and shoot the pirate. But we can’t do that. In my meditation, I saw that if I had been born in the village of the pirate and raised in the same conditions as he was, I would now be the pirate. …. I can’t condemn myself so easily. In my meditation, I saw that many babies are born along the Gulf of Siam, hundreds every day, and if we educators, social workers, politicians, and others do not do something about the situation, in twenty-five years a number of them will become sea pirates. That is certain. If you or I were born today in those fishing villages, we might become sea pirates in twenty-five years. If you take a gun and shoot the pirate, you shoot all of us, because all of us are to some extent responsible for this state of affairs."

I am the mayfly metamorphosing
on the surface of the river.
And I am the bird
that swoops down to swallow the mayfly.

I am the frog swimming happily
in the clear water of a pond.
And I am the grass-snake
that silently feeds itself on the frog.

I am the child in Uganda, all skin and bones,
my legs as thin as bamboo sticks.
And I am the arms merchant,
selling deadly weapons to Uganda.

I am the twelve-year-old girl,
refugee on a small boat,
who throws herself into the ocean
after being raped by a sea pirate.
And I am the pirate,
my heart not yet capable
of seeing and loving.

I am a member of the politburo,
with plenty of power in my hands.
And I am the man who has to pay
his “debt of blood” to my people
dying slowly in a forced-labor camp.

My joy is like Spring, so warm
it makes flowers bloom all over the Earth.
My pain is like a river of tears,
so vast it fills the four oceans.

Please call me by my true names,
so I can hear all my cries and my laughter at once,
so I can see that my joy and pain are one.

Please call me by my true names,
so I can wake up,
and so the door of my heart
can be left open,
the door of compassion.

 

[idea]

There seem to be two questions here: What is your hope for eternity following death, and what kind of heaven do you imagine.

I couldn't describe what kind of heaven I should hope for except from the context of having lived a lifetime on earth. So, my answer would be limited to the best of that experience: love, beauty, equanimity, freedom from shame and conflict, etc.. Answering now would sound like the answer a 5-year old might give if asked the same question: "I want lots of ice cream and no spankings."

More of this life would be fine, but for how long, and then what? So, my answer is that my hope for after death is to return to where I was before birth, that is, eternal unconsciousness. The thought of being forced to remain conscious without end inspires dread. It gives me great comfort to know that if life ever becomes too horrible to endure, death is available as an escape.

I look at it like this: If I could choose between eternal consciousness and eternal unconsciousness today not knowing what lay ahead, but knowing that once I chose consciousness, there was no way out, the choice is easy. There is no reward I can imagine worth gambling an eternity of something I want out of but am stuck in.

Hope for things not seen? Not immortality.

"Everything has its wonders, even darkness and silence.... and I learn, whatever state I may be in, therein to be content." - Helen Keller

 

[idea]

When Einstein was dying, he reportedly said when asked about the future, this life was enough for him. While I feel sorry for someone with that attitude, I can understand. He wasn't sure about God, I am convinced he didn't know Him but he was honest in a certain sense. I have learned what the Bible says that there will be new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness will dwell. Not boring but wonderful.

For the atheists, to agnostics, spiritual or religious, of any faith - believing or not, what is true or not -

"Sometimes the things that may or may not be true are the things a man needs to believe in the most. That people are basically good. That honor, courage and virtue mean everything ; that power and money … money and power mean nothing. That good always triumphs over evil. And I want you to remember this…. that love….true love never dies. Remember that boy … remember that. Doesn’t matter if it is true or not, a man should believe in those things, because those are the things worth believing in.”

No need to believe in everything. Everyone decides what is worth believing in.

What does everyone believe is worth believing in? To have hope in a better future is to first have vision, even if it is a hope without faith.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Yes--thinking about the earth and the things on it -- we hardly have scratched the surface of exploring things. Fabulous future to look forward to.

....and 'Fabulous' according to Revelation 22:2 because there will be ' healing ' for earth's nations.
No one will say, " I am sick...." according to Isaiah 33:24.
Earth and its people will be 'happy and healthy' according to Isaiah 35th chapter.
Even ' enemy death ' will be No more on Earth - Isaiah 25:8; 1 Corinthians 15:26

 

[URAVIP2ME]

"Everything has its wonders, even darkness and silence.... and I learn, whatever state I may be in, therein to be content." - Helen Keller.........]

I find according to the Bible that God 'stretches out' the heavens - Jeremiah 10:12; Jeremiah 32:17; Isaiah 42:5.
God's Power and Strength supplies the abundantly needed dynamic energy - Isaiah 40:26; Psalms 104:30.
There are always new stars born, so to speak, in stellar nurseries.
Fret not about 20, 30 plus ruined earth years because there will be divine involvement according to Revelation 11:18 B.
God will bring to ruin those ruining the Earth ( literal and moral ruin ).
'Earth abides forever' according to Ecclesiastes 1:4 B; Psalms 104:5.
What is 'known science' today does not mean man has all the knowledge to have all the answers.

 

[YoursTrue]

....and 'Fabulous' according to Revelation 22:2 because there will be ' healing ' for earth's nations.
No one will say, " I am sick...." according to Isaiah 33:24.
Earth and its people will be 'happy and healthy' according to Isaiah 35th chapter.
Even ' enemy death ' will be No more on Earth - Isaiah 25:8; 1 Corinthians 15:26

Yes. Nobody could make that up.