Baha'i and Messengers

[Vinayaka]

Care to tell me where it is false? And what substitute you have for it? As a former Shaiva, still having a connection with Lord Shiva (he is still my friend, I bear his name, ever in company with me), I do not mind being made fun of by you.
Seeker of White light has his own messenger and his own book to defend.

I never said it was false. I said other people will tell you it's false. I'm not fixated on true or false, lol.

 

[KWED]

I do not have facts that prove what the future holds. Only God knows what the future holds.
I believe that people will become more spiritual because the Revelation of Baha'u'llah will eventually be known to everyone and everyone will believe in God in the future, but nobody knows how how that will go or how long it will take.

Good luck with that!
People are generally becoming less religions. On this forum alone there are more people rejecting your stories than accepting them.
Obviously, the uneducated and the gullible might well switch from the religion they were born into to Baha'i if it sounds better, but that's a pretty low bar.

 

[KWED]

Whatever will happen will happen and it will be what God has foreordained.

You do realise that this position negates free will?

No, of course you don't. Cognitive dissonance means you can happily hold contradictory positions at the same time, blithely unaware of the implications.

 

[KWED]

Evidence is all around us and most definitely not subjective. Every atom in existence, nature, the laws of physics, the stars and universes, the complexity and intricacy of the human body are all scientific realities. These are all proof and evidence of a Supreme Intelligence in the universe.

Only if you ignore all the scientific explanations for such things. You need to be more open-minded and seek knowledge rather than rejecting it.

 

[KWED]

So called 'independent investigation' means Baha'i sources only.

Someone on here (Trailblazer) claimed they knew Baha'i was the truth because they had done independent research. When I pressed for the sources for this "research', I was shown a propaganda piece written by a Baha'i writer.

 

[KWED]

No. They are scientific proofs of the existence of God because scientific laws are fixed and programmed to function in a certain manner and cannot choose to deviate from their assigned function. That function was assigned by an Intelligence capable of programming scientific laws and fixing their functions.

Bare question begging. We know there are certain laws of physics, etc, - but we made up those laws to describe what we observe.
If you are claiming that those observations are the way they are because a god made them like that then you first need to show such a god exists in the first place, because science has no need for any such god in order to come up working explanations and predictions.

Same with the human body. It is an extremely complex and intricate science that is held together by the programming of its various elements and organs by a Supreme Intelligence. The organs are not conscious but function according to how they were programmed by an Intelligence.

No they don't. The body works according to well understood, physical principles and processes. No magic required.

A Supreme Intelligence controlling the universe makes perfect scientific sense.

Only if you have very limited knowledge and imagination.

The concept of a Higher Intelligence is in accordance with science and reason.

Which is why all the greatest scientific minds today agree that there is a god who designed everything.
Oh....
(Just to be sure you understood the irony, around 95% of the members of the Royal Institution and the American Academy of Science do not believe in a creationist god)

 

[KWED]

No it does not mean that,

It does in my experience.

but it does mean also considering the content with justice in mind.

What does that even mean?

 

[KWED]

God cannot put in a personal appearance because God is not a person. God is Spirit.

So your god is not omnipotent. He can't do even a simple trick like make his existence known other than by communications that could easily be hallucinations, delusions or other psychotic events generated within an individual's brain. Communications that are literally impossible to verify.

 

[KWED]

It’s like you’re asking me to prove the sun exists when it’s so clear.

Ah, so your god has a physical presence that can be independently detected and verified by a number of reliable processes?
Cool. Show me!

 

[KWED]

I posted this the other day on this thread so that’s not being fair to me Vinayaka.

In fact, for those who see in the monotheistic religions only one of the stations in the evolution of the human race, it is not too far-fetched to believe that a new religion will develop within the next few hundred years, a religion which corresponds to the development of the human race; the most important feature of such a religion would be its universalistic character, corresponding to the unification of mankind which is taking place in this epoch; it would embrace the humanistic teachings common to all great religions of the East and of the West; its doctrines would not contradict the rational insight of mankind today, and its emphasis would be on the practice of life, rather than on doctrinal beliefs. Such a religion would create new rituals and artistic forms of expression, conducive to the spirit of reverence toward life and the solidarity of man. Religion can, of course, not be invented. It will come into existence with the appearance of a new great teacher, just as they have appeared in previous centuries when the time was ripe. In the meantime, those who believe in God should express their faith by living it; those who do not believe, by living the precepts of love and justice and—waiting. (Erich Fromm 1955)

That does not describe the Baha'i faith.

Seems odd that if what he was describing is the Baha'i teaching, he never made the connection himself, despite being aware of the Baha'i faith, and was talking about some future event.
Never mind, nice try.

 

[KWED]

As you probably know, I only pop in and out of this discussion on rare occasions now, I see there are many taking up the challenge these days. Most certainly this quote is confirmation bias at its best, if not directly from a Baha'i source.

It is cited in many Baha'i articles. That's almost certainly where they came across it. So yes, somewhat disingenuous to claim it is a non-baha'i source confirming the truth of Baha'i - especially as it 1. does not accurately describe Baha'ism, and 2. it is specifically talking about some future event, not an existing religion.

 

[Audie]

Yes, that would make sense but Seeker of White Light said "Not every human has opened their heart enough to gain the wisdom to understand message from God or messengers"
which implies that in order to see the evidence one must first open one's heart to god, which is not possible if you believe god doesn't exist.

Which is nonsense.
A lot of people such as myself have given it
a good faith try.

 

[ppp]

Which is nonsense.
A lot of people such as myself have given it
a good faith try.

Indeed. I began as a believer. And even after I you deconverted, I approached my investigation of other religions with the explicit assumption that was missing something.

 

[KWED]

No, I do not say what God can and cannot do, Baha'u'llah said that.

So Bahaullah, as a mortal, was in a position to say what God can and cannot do.

God did create a material form in order to make a personal appearance.
It is called a Manifestation of God (also referred to as a Messenger of God).

So Bahaullah was god in physical form, able to perform miracles that will leave no doubt about his identity and existence.
Cool!

“He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49

So you know Bahaulla is god because Bahaullah told you he is.
That's about a circular as logic can get. Sorry.

 

[KWED]

I got it from the actual book which I own. Never ever been to that link or any other Baha’i website regarding Fromm.

Nice try. Post a photo of your copy with a note on it saying "RF 17/01/2022".

 

[KWED]

What I cannot demonstrate to you is something you have never experienced. For example I could not convey to you in a million words what chocolate tastes like if you have never tasted it.

But you can give that person a piece of your chocolate so they can also experience it.
You haven't quite got the hang of this analogy lark, have you?

Then again can a person who has a cold smell the most beautiful perfume?

I don't like perfume. It all smells awful to me.

If the spiritual senses are sick, one cannot see or know God.

What are the "spiritual senses", and how do you know we have them?
How do you know your "spiritual experience" is not just an internally produced delusion?
Remember that we know that the brain can produce false hallucinations and delusions that seem absolutely real to the subject.

 

[Sheldon]

God cannot put in a personal appearance because God is not a person. God is Spirit.

I think maybe some Christians might disagree. However what you're describing is clearly not an omnipotent deity.

 

[Sheldon]

Religion can, of course, not be invented.

You're kidding right?

 

[KWED]

No, Baha'is do not believe that Baha'u'llah was God incarnated in the flesh
Baha'is do not believe that God can become flesh.

Well, at least one Baha'i seems to.

God manifests His Attributes in the flesh, not His Essence.

Meaning what, precisely?

 

[KWED]

God cannot become flesh.

Why not? He can create an entire universe from nothing. Makes no sense.