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Stigmatizing

We Never Know

No Slack
I see from a different perspective: you do have a free choice, but you're demanding freedom from the consequences of your choice and acting as if you're entitled to good will and high regard frok the people you're choosing to put in harm's way.

You have the right to refuse the vaccine. What you don't have the right to do is live as if you've been vaccinated if you've refused the vaccine.

If you lose your job... too bad. It was a situation of your own making. You have the right not to be vaccinated, but you don't have the right to put others at undue risk.

... and this doesn't change just because you fail to appreciate the risk you've chosen to impose on others.

What is the survival rate/% of covid?
That answer is among the reasons some won't take the vaccine
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
What is the survival rate/% of covid?
The mortality rate is 1.1% here in Canada. Other countries have been hit much worse.

That answer is among the reasons some won't take the vaccine
No, it really isn't.

The way you can tell: ask them what the mortality rate would need to be for them to get vaccinated.

If their refusal really is because they think the mortality rate is too low, they'll be able to tell you what the rate would have to be for them to consider it not "too low."

If someone can't give you a specific number, it's because they don't have one.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
The mortality rate is 1.1% here in Canada. Other countries have been hit much worse.


No, it really isn't.

The way you can tell: ask them what the mortality rate would need to be for them to get vaccinated.

If their refusal really is because they think the mortality rate is too low, they'll be able to tell you what the rate would have to be for them to consider it not "too low."

If someone can't give you a specific number, it's because they don't have one.

I have asked some. They said in the US 65 million infected with 800k deaths equal 98.8% survival rate so I will take my chances with the survival rate.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I have asked some. They said in the US 65 million infected with 800k deaths equal 98.8% survival rate so I will take my chances with the survival rate.
Weird how it doesn't occur to them that even with such a "high" survival rate, the number of people who have died from COVID is insanely high.
Turns out 1.2% turns out to be a LOT of dead people. That comes out to 5.52 MILLION deaths worldwide and counting.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Perhaps you are the one changing the goalposts... Whatever they are supposed to be.
Surely that's not all that was stated. Maybe you closed your eyes at this point... They have so little respect for others that they are willing to put medical professionals at risk (as well as others) and have been unnecessarily prolonging this pandemic through their ignorance and selfishness."

Can you explain how that's different to this... The vaccinated only catch the virus because people are unvaccinated

How in the world are those two remotely the same???

Nobody claims that vaccinated people ONLY catch the virus because of unvaccinated people. That would be silly.

But it is also the case that having a lot of unvaccinated people, who are thereby more at risk of catching and transmitting the virus and its variants, puts everyone, including the vaccinated at higher risk. And that has prolonged this pandemic unnecessarily.

If everyone was vaccinated, there would still be variants that arise, but they would be far less likely to spread and infect large numbers of people. There would still be *small* outbreaks. But the massive infection rates that overwhelm our healthcare system would not be happening.

What's that all about? Educational session?
It might serve to be far more useful if you school us on how the unvaccinated are prolonging this pandemic through their ignorance and selfishness.

By giving a large population of people that more much more likely to get infected, they provide a reservoir where mutations can occur and spread. This type of spread doesn't happen in smaller populations, or where more people have high immunity.

These mutations are the *variants* that we see popping up. The risk is that they can be more transmissible and/or more deadly than previous variants. Also, new variants can be different enough that the vaccines don't provide as much immunity, thereby putting even those who are vaccinated at risk.

At each and every step of this pandemic, there have been some that refuse to take basic measures to reduce the severity of this disease. From refusing to socially distance, to refusing to wear masks, to refusing to get vaccinated, they have consistently refused to take responsibility and have put others at risk.

PS.
About giving "your immune system the ability to kick in instantly and attack the virus before it can do any damage". What happened to all those vaccinated whose immune system didn't seem to prevent them "kicking the bucket"? (No disrespect on that pun, to those who suffered loss)

Once again, NO VACCINE IS 100% EFFECTIVE. But it is far, far, far better than letting the virus propagate unchecked.

Simply having fewer people at risk of infection makes it harder for mutations to spread. Having a large number of people at risk means that variants will continue to occur and spread. This puts even those who are vaccinated at risk.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I have asked some. They said in the US 65 million infected with 800k deaths equal 98.8% survival rate so I will take my chances with the survival rate.

Really? What survival rate would lead you to saying a vaccine is warranted? Would 90% be too low? How about 80%? 50%?

What do you think the survival rate was for the Spanish Flu? Smallpox? What diseases, historically, had a survival rate low enough to warrant vaccines in your mind?

Historically, a 1.2% death rate is *very* high.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
Really? What survival rate would lead you to saying a vaccine is warranted? Would 90% be too low? How about 80%? 50%?

What do you think the survival rate was for the Spanish Flu? Smallpox? What diseases, historically, had a survival rate low enough to warrant vaccines in your mind?

Historically, a 1.2% death rate is *very* high.

Read my post again. I didn't say that, its what some people I have talked to said.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I didn't ask them.
But you do see my point, right?

If someone says "the mortality rate isn't high enough for me to get a vaccine," then – if they aren't full of crap – they have an idea of what the mortality rate would be where they would get the vaccine.

If someone says "the vaccine hasn't been tested enough to know it's safe," then – if they aren't full of crap – they have an idea of how much testing would make them feel like they would feel safe.

If someone says "the vaccine has too many side effects," then – if they aren't full of crap – they have an idea of a side effect rate that they would consider acceptable.

It's not even a matter of their opinion being reasonable or informed; it's a matter of their opinion being honest and internally consistent.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
@TagliatelliMonster I noticed you did not respond to my post. Any reason why?
Will you be responding to it. I really would like to hear your response.
Also, I am interested in your educating us on this. Can the virus mutate and thus become a new variant in fully vaccinated people, and thus put others at risk, including the unvaccinated.
I am not interested in the far more likelys and the figure comparisons. Is that okay with you?

Hence, how is it that the unvaccinated are prolonging the pandemic? ...More precisely, the ignorant selfish unvaccinated?
Something else I am interested in that was just said, but I'm interested in hearing you on this first.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
@TagliatelliMonster I noticed you did not respond to my post. Any reason why?
Will you be responding to it. I really would like to hear your response.
Also, I am interested in your educating us on this. Can the virus mutate and thus become a new variant in fully vaccinated people, and thus put others at risk, including the unvaccinated.
I am not interested in the far more likelys and the figure comparisons. Is that okay with you?

Well, it shouldn't be okay.

The *whole point* is to *reduce* risk. There is no way to *eliminate* it. So those 'more likelys' and 'figure comparisons' are the *whole point*.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
But you do see my point, right?

If someone says "the mortality rate isn't high enough for me to get a vaccine," then – if they aren't full of crap – they have an idea of what the mortality rate would be where they would get the vaccine.

If someone says "the vaccine hasn't been tested enough to know it's safe," then – if they aren't full of crap – they have an idea of how much testing would make them feel like they would feel safe.

If someone says "the vaccine has too many side effects," then – if they aren't full of crap – they have an idea of a side effect rate that they would consider acceptable.

It's not even a matter of their opinion being reasonable or informed; it's a matter of their opinion being honest and internally consistent.

When I talked to people about the vaccine I listen to what they say without arguing with them, whether I agree or disagree.
Some say they don't trust it, some say there isnt enough data, some say the survival rate is almost 99% , etc.

Same as I don't argue with people about religion. They have their thoughts and I'm not going to try to change them.
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
I consider injecting these vaccines into myself as a dangerous thing to do, detrimental to the body...
(Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
1 Corinthians 6:19). So why would I want to see anyone doing so or think my doing so is demonstrating love?

On the contrary for me to do so against my conscience would be sin.

... for whatever is not from faith is sin. Romans 14:23

So you have never ever had a vaccine or shot? Really? You never eat food that is bad for you or use products that have harmful chemicals in them?
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
All I know is that in my area, right now, the hospitals and clinics are being flooded with Covid patients. Many of whom are not vaccinated. People are dying, and nurses are getting burned out. We're the only country right now that is throwing a fit over the vaccine. Please. Please get vaccinated. Wear a mask. We have the power to end this.

When people pretend their religion is against certain actions, you will not be able to reason with them to make smart choices. It's sad. They keep doing things that make people resent them and wonder why.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
So you have never ever had a vaccine or shot? Really? You never eat food that is bad for you or use products that have harmful chemicals in them?
The last shot I’ve had was over thirty years ago and vaccine over forty-five years. I eat organic, non-GMO food almost all the time. I avoid products with harmful chemicals as much as possible as there are plenty of safer alternatives and certainly don’t have such chemicals injected into my bloodstream.
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
The last shot I’ve had was over thirty years ago and vaccine over forty-five years. I eat organic, non-GMO food almost all the time. I avoid products with harmful chemicals as much as possible as there are plenty of safer alternatives and certainly don’t have such chemicals injected into my bloodstream.

At least you're trying to be consistent.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Perhaps you are the one changing the goalposts... Whatever they are supposed to be.
Surely that's not all that was stated. Maybe you closed your eyes at this point... They have so little respect for others that they are willing to put medical professionals at risk (as well as others) and have been unnecessarily prolonging this pandemic through their ignorance and selfishness."

Can you explain how that's different to this... The vaccinated only catch the virus because people are unvaccinated

The word "only" implies that vaccinated people can not catch it from another vaccinated person.
Which is not true.

The unvaccinated indeed prolong the pandemic problems and idd are a statistical danger to everyone, if there are enough of them.

The immune system of an unvaccinated person still has to learn how to respond once infected. So they are sick and infectious for longer. It means the virus gets to reproduce a lot longer then in a vaccinated person (since then the immune system kicks in right away with what it already has learned from the vaccine).

Meaning:
- infectious for larger periods of time
- a LOT more virus particles (so more infectious also, not just longer)
- more reproduction = more mutations = higher chance of mutants capable of breaking through vaccination

A combination of these factors means that they will infect a lot more people (including the vaccinated) and will also end up in the hospital a lot more also. Meaning more stress on healthcare systems. Leading to restrictive measures and lockdowns.

So in short, the unvaccinated infect a lot more people then the vaccinated. And they likely also will be the incubators of new variants.

Ironically, the omicron variant might be the beginning of the end.

What's that all about? Educational session?

Apparently it's required...

It might serve to be far more useful if you school us on how the unvaccinated are prolonging this pandemic through their ignorance and selfishness.

See above.

PS.
About giving "your immune system the ability to kick in instantly and attack the virus before it can do any damage". What happened to all those vaccinated whose immune system didn't seem to prevent them "kicking the bucket"?
They are among the 3 to 7% (depending on which vaccine they had) in which the vaccination didn't work very well.


PS: how do you explain that in countries where the vast majority is vaccinated, the vast majority of the hospitalized, those in ICU and those that die are unvaccinated people?

Could it perhaps be that being vaccinated lowers your chances severely of needing hospitalization, ICU or worse? And since the social measures and lockdowns are a direct result of stress on hospitals (to prevent health care collapse), wouldn't then by definition mean that unvaccinated people are prolonging pandemic measures?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
The word "only" implies that vaccinated people can not catch it from another vaccinated person.
Which is not true.

The unvaccinated indeed prolong the pandemic problems and idd are a statistical danger to everyone, if there are enough of them.

The immune system of an unvaccinated person still has to learn how to respond once infected. So they are sick and infectious for longer. It means the virus gets to reproduce a lot longer then in a vaccinated person (since then the immune system kicks in right away with what it already has learned from the vaccine).

Meaning:
- infectious for larger periods of time
- a LOT more virus particles (so more infectious also, not just longer)
- more reproduction = more mutations = higher chance of mutants capable of breaking through vaccination

A combination of these factors means that they will infect a lot more people (including the vaccinated) and will also end up in the hospital a lot more also. Meaning more stress on healthcare systems. Leading to restrictive measures and lockdowns.

So in short, the unvaccinated infect a lot more people then the vaccinated. And they likely also will be the incubators of new variants.

Ironically, the omicron variant might be the beginning of the end.



Apparently it's required...



See above.


They are among the 3 to 7% (depending on which vaccine they had) in which the vaccination didn't work very well.


PS: how do you explain that in countries where the vast majority is vaccinated, the vast majority of the hospitalized, those in ICU and those that die are unvaccinated people?

Could it perhaps be that being vaccinated lowers your chances severely of needing hospitalization, ICU or worse? And since the social measures and lockdowns are a direct result of stress on hospitals (to prevent health care collapse), wouldn't then by definition mean that unvaccinated people are prolonging pandemic measures?
I'll get back to you shortly with an answer to your question, along with a scenario. Just have something to do in a few minutes.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Sorry Tag. Lost interest. It's not you. I just don't want to talk about this topic on RF anymore.
See you some other time.... some other thread.:)

If you really really really feel it's important though, PM me.
 
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