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A challenge for atheist (From Youtube)

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
And yet you are partial as is the belief in atheism.
We can discuss that when someone at last tells me what real thing, (thing not conceptual / imaginary, thing with objective existence) is intended to be designated by the word 'God', such that if we find a real candidate we can determine whether it's God or not.

Meanwhile 'real God' remains an incoherent notion, no?

And while you're there, what is 'godness' ─ the real quality a real god would have and a real superscientist who could create universes, travel in time, raise the dead and so on, would lack?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
I was paraphrasing the argument you gave for why OBEs would be evidence of God.
OBEs are evidence for and after life and an afterlife is evidence for God, I agree that none of this follow logically and inescapably, but I am pretty sure that if you ever have a real and verifiable OBE you will move at least one step closer towards theism.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
I said that the process of evolution starting with simplicity will inevitably lead to rising complexity.


Assuming that you have the simplest possible organism then yes you can only go up, but after that you can always go either up or down.



And if you take acknowledged simplistic hypothetical examples which don't tell the whole story and then smear them out and generalize them as if there are no other processes and factors involved, then you end up with the type of nonsense like you just wrote there.
It’s your model, it’s your theory, you are the one who has the obligation of presenting a realistic example of what actually happens.
 

lukethethird

unknown member
OBEs are evidence for and after life and an afterlife is evidence for God, I agree that none of this follow logically and inescapably, but I am pretty sure that if you ever have a real and verifiable OBE you will move at least one step closer towards theism.
No way José. Where in the world do you come up with your ideas?
.
 

setarcos

The hopeful or the hopeless?
All your evidence is just words on a book. Made up by some guys nobody knows. For what we know, those tales might have been written to entertain bored Romans at home.
Not exactly just words. Applied science comes into play here and one of the things which has attracted me to Christianity more so than many of the other conflicting religions.
That is Archeology has and is up to the present continuing to "unearth" real tangible artifacts which attest to many of the events and places mentioned in Christian scripture. The scriptures have tangible connections to the real world made through scientific discoveries concerning the real people and places described within them. If you bar the supernatural parts...its fascinating how science is actually showing the bible to be a reliable historical source of information.
Not even the Jews, the closest we have in terms of eye witnesses, and expertise in prophecy, ever bought that.
I don't know if your not that familiar with the Judeo Christian scriptures but the early Christians were Jews. They did buy that. And many of them bought that despite the very real and life threatening dangers of doing so. The whole point of Jesus's trial and crucifixion was because so many of them were buying that that the Jewish leadership was getting very concerned.
So, what else do you have?
;)But wait....there's more:p I find your picture somewhat comforting by the way. I like it.
Ok. That is an easy one. I might mention that the whole fine tuning argument is nothing more than an instance of the Texas sharpshooter fallacy, but it would not be fun.
Here's why the fine tuning consideration is not a "Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy". The data in considering such fine tuning is not epistemologically isolated from each other. In other words there is no emphasizing one set of data points by isolating other data from consideration. The universe is a closed system in that respect. Its a domino effect. Change the tuned characteristics of one facet of existence it effects the other facets of that existence. The main consideration is the suitability for life to exist in this universe the way it does. This is not the same as for instance judging two fields of crops both intelligently sewed because one crop displays characteristics of being sewn intelligently even though the other seems randomly sewn and chaotic. The characteristics of the fields, in this case, are not dependent upon each other for how their crops were sewn. These universe is a s

i will accept the premise that there is a fine tuning to accommodate life that begs for an explanation
That is a starting point. And important to note. It is a legitimate conundrum of scientific discovery which nags for an answer.

There are possibly infinite universes. Covering all possible combinations of tunings. So, our universe is just one of the relatively few that have the right conditions to host life.
Seems like a reasonable solution to the phenomena of fine tuning.
But just for the sake of covering all sides, let me take a swing at some problems that might not yet be covered....
I personally find it amusing that the best some scientists can come up with so far - instead of just saying "we're not sure" because they are so uncomfortable with the other possibility - is the multiverse theories which itself is untestable, unevidenced, and consequently purely faith based. Exactly what the theists are accused of doing.

From what I've studied, here may be some good reasons for finding the multiverse theories less scientifically tenable than the alternative; intelligent design. Here is some of many due to space
1) It is a speculative metaphysical hypothesis not a scientific one.
2) The theistic design hypothesis constitutes a simpler less ad hoc explanation...as argued by the Oxford philosopher Richard Swinburne.
3) In accordance to 2...Ockham's razor, stating that when attempting to explain phenomena we should, as much as possible, avoid "multiplying (theoretical) entities."
The God hypothesis requires the postulation of only one explanatory agent rather than multiple entities, including an infinite number of causally separate universes and the various universe-generating mechanisms posited by multiverse advocates.
Swinburne argues, "It is the height of irrationality to postulate an infinite number of universes never causally connected with each other, merely to avoid the hypothesis of theism. Given that....a theory is simpler the fewer entities it postulates, it is far simpler to postulate one God than an infinite number of universes, each differing from each other."
4) Philosopher of physics Bruce Gordon points out that accepting the multiverse hypothesis requires accepting two distinct types of universe-generating mechanisms to explain two distinct types of fine tuning.
a) inflationary cosmology - can conceivably explain the fine tuning of the initial conditions of the universe, but does not explain the origin of the fine tuning of the laws and constants of physics.
b) string theory - might be used to explain the fine tuning of the laws and constants of physics, but does not generate multiple sets of initial conditions for each choice of physical laws.
5) Thus from 4, 2 types of universe - generating mechanisms must be postulated operating in combination. Actually increasing the fine tuning problem
6) Science has as of yet had to postulate an extraordinary number of purely hypothetical and abstract entities with no direct evidence in order to seek an explanation for the fine tuning. Which is decidedly unscientific and exactly the behavior Atheists accuse theists of doing.
7) Both inflationary cosmology, and string theory (and the multiverse versions that combine them) posit universe-generating mechanisms that themselves require prior unexplained fine tuning making the fine tuning problem they were designed to solve actually much worse.
it takes a smaller leap of faith to believe in a multitude of what we know to exist, than in a single instance of something that has no reality track record at all.
Well...I think I've shown that it actually takes a greater leap of faith.:shrug:
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
OBEs are evidence for and after life and an afterlife is evidence for God, I agree that none of this follow logically and inescapably, but I am pretty sure that if you ever have a real and verifiable OBE you will move at least one step closer towards theism.
As I mentioned earlier, we can induce OBEs in the lab. There's nothing supernatural about them ─ they're simply abnormalities in the way we process our sensory input.

And you'll no doubt be aware of an experiment that ran for many years in a British hospital last century, where two doctors placed large placards on the top of high cupboards and fixtures so that they could only be read from above, typically the view reported by those experiencing OBEs. The placards asked the reader to report that they'd seen the placard. The result of that, and of similar experiments elsewhere, have all been zero.

We have not one single authenticated case of a person returning from an OBE or an NDE with new remote information about reality.
 
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leroy

Well-Known Member
What evidence?[TE]

The facts
Do gifst appear in the tree ?

Do people see a fat man entering his house

Do cameras confirm what people saw ?


We are talking about hypothetical scenarios the evidence is anything that you whant to imagine

I didn't ask that. You should answer the question I actually asked. Not the one you would have liked that I asked.

Then i didn't understand the question
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Not exactly just words. Applied science comes into play here and one of the things which has attracted me to Christianity more so than many of the other conflicting religions.
That is Archeology has and is up to the present continuing to "unearth" real tangible artifacts which attest to many of the events and places mentioned in Christian scripture. The scriptures have tangible connections to the real world made through scientific discoveries concerning the real people and places described within them. If you bar the supernatural parts...its fascinating how science is actually showing the bible to be a reliable historical source of information.
I am sure Sherlock Homes novels also represent London quite faithfully. Of course, that does not entail in the slightest that Sherlock Homes was real. Same with many other books and fantasy characters.

So, still nothing, I am afraid.

I don't know if your not that familiar with the Judeo Christian scriptures but the early Christians were Jews. They did buy that. And many of them bought that despite the very real and life threatening dangers of doing so. The whole point of Jesus's trial and crucifixion was because so many of them were buying that that the Jewish leadership was getting very concerned.

Well, I know many Jews, They told me Jesus was not the Messiah, according to their reading of Scriptures. So, if religious people, sharing the same prophecy, completely disagree whether there was a fulfilment or not, it is mind boggling to expect outsiders to buy that.

And life threatening dangers does not entail that the belief concern truths. Actually, it usually is not. I know people who sacrificed themselves, and all their families, believing that a UFO hiding behind a comet will pick their souls on the way.

Here's why the fine tuning consideration is not a "Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy". The data in considering such fine tuning is not epistemologically isolated from each other. In other words there is no emphasizing one set of data points by isolating other data from consideration. The universe is a closed system in that respect. Its a domino effect. Change the tuned characteristics of one facet of existence it effects the other facets of that existence. The main consideration is the suitability for life to exist in this universe the way it does. This is not the same as for instance judging two fields of crops both intelligently sewed because one crop displays characteristics of being sewn intelligently even though the other seems randomly sewn and chaotic. The characteristics of the fields, in this case, are not dependent upon each other for how their crops were sewn. These universe is a s

Well, this is valid for any tuning it could have had. Change it, and it would have been completely different. A tautology, basically.

Anyway, in this context I accepted the challenge, and proposed a naturalistic alternative, that totally defuse the logical necessity of a fine tuner. I think that should suffice to put the argument to rest. As all arguments that intend to prove X, when there are equally valid alternatives which prove not-X.
From what I've studied, here may be some good reasons for finding the multiverse theories less scientifically tenable than the alternative; intelligent design. Here is some of many due to space
1) It is a speculative metaphysical hypothesis not a scientific one.
2) The theistic design hypothesis constitutes a simpler less ad hoc explanation...as argued by the Oxford philosopher Richard Swinburne.
3) In accordance to 2...Ockham's razor, stating that when attempting to explain phenomena we should, as much as possible, avoid "multiplying (theoretical) entities."
And God is not a speculative metaphysical alternative? I never said it was a scientific alternative, I said it was a naturalistic one. By the way, the multiverse pops out in many scientific theories, although I concede it might never be validated experimentally. So, I am not sure what your rebuttal is about.

And the Ockham's is not applicable in this case. Actually, it is dangerous to use it in this context. Consider this: in a few billion years from now, at the current rate of expansion of space, our galaxy will be completely alone in the whole observable universe. All other objects will be beyond the horizon of what is, even in principle, observable. Priests would have then an even greater reason to invoke fine tuning given the occurrence of life in such a small universe.. However, a young smart scientist postulates that there are billions of worlds, beyond the observable. That is what his equations tell him. And it would be right, and Ockham wrong.

Therefore, Ockham is applicable only for hypothesis, assumptions, not physical things. To make another example, the multi-world interpretation of QM requires less assumptions on the theory by removing altogether assumptions about mysterious wave collapses induced by observation, at the price of an inflation of worlds. Because of that, it is still preferable according to Ockham despite the many unobservable worlds it expects.

Ciao

- viole
 
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viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Geeze, this statement seems overly harsh and dismissive. And I might add arguable that most past and contemporary scientific giants would consider these things far from easy and a "piece" of cake. Perhaps I can discuss this further in another post with you.
What's your take on morality anyway?
And before you start spouting off about no evidence this and that, keep in mind my above explanations were from a Christian perspective on reality and not meant as a defense of the source of that perspectives existence in reality. The Answers to your statements were given under the Christian perspective only.
I mean, it is really easy to find naturalistic (not necessarily scientific. I wonder where you got that scientific requirement part) alternatives to non-naturalistic ones. Just challenge me.

The consequences are inescapable. If things like "fine tuning" are used to prove the existence of a tuner, then I will be able to provide a naturalistic alternative, with the same exact explanatory power, that does not require any tuner. Ergo, the fine tuning argument for the existence of God is useless.

The same with the others.

Ciao

- viole
 
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leroy

Well-Known Member
Hey - let's put some specifics on it, then.

By Santa Claus, I mean:

- St. Nicholas, formerly the Bishop of Myra, died in 343 CE, who has been - somehow - resurrected and now lives as an immortal or quasi-immortal being, and

- he now lives at or near either the North Pole or Lapland, and

- he lives with elves and at least 8 flying reindeer.

Are those enough specifics for you? If so, please disprove this Santa Claus.
As I said you cant disprove any idea.


I dont see your point, i cant falsify with 100% Certanity the existance of Santa, Perhaps I live in the Matrix and the real world has a real Santa.

But we can reject the idea of Santa for these reasons

1 it has no explanatory power 2 no explanatory scope

3 inconsistency with previous knowledge

4 no predictive power

5 we don’t see the evidence that we would expect to see

6 its unparsimonious

7 introducing the Santa hypothesis would require hundrets of “ad Hoc” explanations

Etc

In the case of God / intelligent design we do have some of this points fulfilled.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
3. God is like any other fantastical(*) entity that is asserted to exist without evidence.

(*) with "fantastical", I mean "out of the ordinary". Not like aliens. Aliens are biological creatures just like living organisms on this planet, only they live on another planet. And given the sheer size of the universe and everything we know today about biology, I'ld be extremely surprised if earth is the only planet in the entire universe with life on it. So "out of the ordinary" are things for which we have zero precedents and which, in this specific cares, borderlines magical creatures. Like centaurs, fairies and dragons.




That is utterly dishonest and riddled with fallacious thinking.
There's an argument of ignorance embedded therein which implies that unless one comes up with "alternative explanations" for all those things, then the claim that this undemonstrable god is responsible for it stands. That is off course ridiculous.

Secondly, there is no need at all to come up with alternative explanations that are simply asserted arbitrarily with no evidence at all. What is asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.




False again. We can only give a fair shake to things that are presented with evidence. The "fair shake" would be to honestly evaluate the evidence. But there is none.
Alien abductees are treated in the same way.



Why? When did you even show that miracles are even "possible"?
In fact, miracles are literally things that are impossible yet happen anyway.



Yes, we would assume aliens. Which are simply biological creatures like we know them on this planet. Aliens aren't extra-ordinary magical beings.

This is in fact why would assume natural aliens to be the builders and not magical unicorns.




To be honest, I'm not so sure what the "challenge" actually is?



Dear.... I wonder how many times I've already explained this.

When atheists compare god with santa clause, they aren't comparing the entities.
They are comparing the evidence in support of those entities. Which is non-existent.

It's the same reason why god is also compared to bigfoot, unicorns, fairies, leprechauns, centaurs, etc etc etc etc. Magical beings where the only "evidence" for them are things like unverifiable anecdotes, dreams, visions, etc.

When atheists compare god with santa clause, they aren't comparing the entities.
They are comparing the evidence in support of those entities. Which is non-existent.

And according to your rules, why is the existence of Aliens more “credible” than the idea of God or Santa Clause?

Where is your evidence for aliens? ………. Under what basis do you conclude that “Aliens” are likely to excist and that God and Santa Clause almost certainly don’t exist?

If we find the ruins of an ancient city in an other planaet why would you conclude Aliens did it?........ why not saying “I don’t know and you don’t know ether” maybe there is an unknown natural law in that planet that causes something that looks like an ancient city.


Why can God be comparable with Aliens? (Perhaps he exist perhaps not, we don’t know both possibilities are realistic)?

Yes, we would assume aliens. Which are simply biological creatures like we know them on this planet. Aliens aren't extra-ordinary magical beings.
What exactly do you mean by extraordinary ? and why is Aliens less extraordinary than God?........... what exactly do you mean by “magic” and why is magic “extraordinary”?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
As I said you cant disprove any idea.


I dont see your point, i cant falsify with 100% Certanity the existance of Santa, Perhaps I live in the Matrix and the real world has a real Santa.

But we can reject the idea of Santa for these reasons

1 it has no explanatory power 2 no explanatory scope

3 inconsistency with previous knowledge

4 no predictive power

5 we don’t see the evidence that we would expect to see

6 its unparsimonious

7 introducing the Santa hypothesis would require hundrets of “ad Hoc” explanations

Etc

In the case of God / intelligent design we do have some of this points fulfilled.
I'd say that every reason you just gave for not to accept the existence of Santa applies just as much - if not moreso - to God.

... so now you know why people reject God.
 

Ostronomos

Well-Known Member
We can discuss that when someone at last tells me what real thing, (thing not conceptual / imaginary, thing with objective existence) is intended to be designated by the word 'God', such that if we find a real candidate we can determine whether it's God or not.

Meanwhile 'real God' remains an incoherent notion, no?

And while you're there, what is 'godness' ─ the real quality a real god would have and a real superscientist who could create universes, travel in time, raise the dead and so on, would lack?

Is the scientist omnipotent omnipresent and omniscient? Yes. In that case an abstract scientist is not far fetched.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
And according to your rules, why is the existence of Aliens more “credible” than the idea of God or Santa Clause?

Where is your evidence for aliens? ………. Under what basis do you conclude that “Aliens” are likely to excist and that God and Santa Clause almost certainly don’t exist?

If we find the ruins of an ancient city in an other planaet why would you conclude Aliens did it?........ why not saying “I don’t know and you don’t know ether” maybe there is an unknown natural law in that planet that causes something that looks like an ancient city.


Why can God be comparable with Aliens? (Perhaps he exist perhaps not, we don’t know both possibilities are realistic)?


What exactly do you mean by extraordinary ? and why is Aliens less extraordinary than God?........... what exactly do you mean by “magic” and why is magic “extraordinary”?
"Aliens" as an explanation still isn't likely; it's just more plausible than a God.

It's like the difference between:

1. "This person is rich because he won the grand prize in the lottery," and
2. "This person is rich because he figured how to make alchemy work and transmogrifies lead into gold in his spare time."

One option is very unlikely but is in line with our understanding of how the universe works. The other would need our well-supported understanding of the universe to be fundamentally wrong on many points.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
I'd say that every reason you just gave for not to accept the existence of Santa applies just as much - if not moreso - to God.

... so now you know why people reject God.
Ok but that arrogance has to be justified.

For example if someone claims that God is the best explanation for the FT of the universe, and if he provides reasons for making such a claim you have to actually refute the arguments, ether falsify hihs claims or provide a better explanation.

You can’t simply repeat like a parrot “there is no evidence for God” “there is no evidence for God”
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
"Aliens" as an explanation still isn't likely; it's just more plausible than a God.

It's like the difference between:

1. "This person is rich because he won the grand prize in the lottery," and
2. "This person is rich because he figured how to make alchemy work and transmogrifies lead into gold in his spare time."

One option is very unlikely but is in line with our understanding of how the universe works. The other would need our well-supported understanding of the universe to be fundamentally wrong on many points.
What would be fundamentally wrong if we say “God is the cause of the universe?” (or any other thing commonly attributed to God?)


In the case of the lottery

We know that lotteries exist and we know that people win the lottery every once in a while (in what way is this analogous to aliens?)

In the case of alchemy

We know what chemistry is, we know what chemistry can do, and we know that Lead cant react chemically and produce gold. In what way is this analogous to God?


To me a correct analogy would be

Atheist claim without justification that lotteries are not good expalnations, therefore “alchemy” is the answer, any objection would be refuted by simply saying “Oh that is a lottery of the Gaps argument” just because we don’t know yet how lead became gold, this doesn’t mean that it cant happen, and you cant simply invoke a “mysterious lottery” to explain the wealth of this rich man
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Ok but that arrogance has to be justified.
There's no more arrogance than in your rejection of Santa Claus.

For example if someone claims that God is the best explanation for the FT of the universe, and if he provides reasons for making such a claim you have to actually refute the arguments, ether falsify hihs claims or provide a better explanation.

You can’t simply repeat like a parrot “there is no evidence for God” “there is no evidence for God”
You aren't entitled to someone else's attention or time.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
"Aliens" as an explanation still isn't likely; it's just more plausible than a God.

It's like the difference between:

1. "This person is rich because he won the grand prize in the lottery," and
2. "This person is rich because he figured how to make alchemy work and transmogrifies lead into gold in his spare time."

One option is very unlikely but is in line with our understanding of how the universe works. The other would need our well-supported understanding of the universe to be fundamentally wrong on many points.

you also forggot this questions
What exactly do you mean by extraordinary ? and why is Aliens less extraordinary than God?........... what exactly do you mean by “magic” and why is magic “extraordinary”?
 
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