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Socialism and the Far Right

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
I was certainly brought up to see socialism and Christianity as complementary if not synonymous. The British Labour movement had roots in non conformist Christianity. The values of love and justice always appeared synonymous. And the London dockers, who went on strike for better pay and conditions in 1898, found an unexpected ally in theologically conservative but socially radical Catholic cleric, Cardinal John Henry Newman. I grew up with this stuff, it’s in my DNA. Hence my initial incredulity, when I found out that such an of phenomenon as the “religious right” even exists.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. He also spoke to the rich man, Zacchaeus but it was totally different.

Perhaps what he was saying was "wrong is wrong and more-so wrong when you are rich and you consume widows houses?"



I agree that those who are rich are suppose to help those who are not because if they don't, they are confronting the face of God.

But what is today isn't how we started out. Public schools started around the 1850's. I think the fallacy here is that just because we have some government funded efforts means that socialism is good or that socialism is what we should have.



Good point... but finding a bad apple in a bag of good apples doesn't translate that all apples are bad and shouldn't be eaten.

Jon Bon Jovi is rich and helps the poor.

So what is your point?


John Bon Jovi is a great entertainer, and probably a very nice guy, so I don’t want to single him out. But charitable donors in his position might want to consider Matthew 6:1-4
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
I see Christianity more as a monarchy than socialist.
That's a fair point.

"socialism" is one of those terms that gets batted back and forth a lot. There is a fairly famous video clip of a woman at a town hall meeting saying: "you darned (democratic) socialists, get your hands off of my social security checks."

MOST of the GOP uses "socialism" as a boogey-man term, but the truth is that the US and most western democracies are some blend of democracy and socialism. It's not black and white. The GOP use the term "socialism" to attempt to conjure up images of China under Mao or maybe the USSR. Again, a boogey-man.

The officially "happiest" countries in the world (think Scandinavia), are a bit more socialist than the US, but no where near Mao or the USSR.

And in a word, I'd say yes, Jesus would be pleased to see what's happening in Scandinavia :)
To be fair to the USSR they did achieve some remarkable things. The growth in living standards, life expectency, education levels, drop in infant mortality etc. All without using markets much at all which is like trying to play tennis with a cricket bat, I would imagine.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Many fat rich Christians just erase what Jesus really stood for from their mindsets, methinks.


Sad
Yes... that is absolutely true. As it is in any faith. King Ahab had the same problem as well as many religious people in the time of Jesus.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
That's probably not what Jesus considers as being rich (a person rich in friends isn't going to get into Heaven?).

No... those are two different subjects.

You cannot omit where Jesus said getting a rich man into Heaven is like trying to pass a camel through the eye of a needle (and that gate analogy some try to use didn't exist for much longer after the fact). He didn't say it is important, he just said it's like trying to do something that is harder than impossible.

First of all, you seem to want to omit what was said after. Why?
Second, he also said "It still is possible with God".
Third, you never explained then why he proceeded to say to his disciple that increase was theirs.
Fourth, just exactly what was the message. Was it "don't be rich?" Was it, "don't trust money as the gateway for Heaven?" Was it, "be rich in good works?"
Fifth, "was his point consistent in the rest of his parables and the Torah?" (He was Jewish, you know)

I have more questions if you are really interested or is it that you want to take one scripture and build a new theology.

I also wonder how many people are actually coveting the rich people's money. Another no no.
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
John Bon Jovi is a great entertainer, and probably a very nice guy, so I don’t want to single him out. But charitable donors in his position might want to consider Matthew 6:1-4
So true. But I don't think he goes around sounding the trumpet of what he does. Would that be more of a heart issue? I ask because it is sorta hard not to let my left hand know what my right hand is doing.

You can also pray sounding a trumpet but it doesn't mean don't pray out loud. Another matter of the heart.
 
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Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That's a fair point.

To be fair to the USSR they did achieve some remarkable things. The growth in living standards, life expectency, education levels, drop in infant mortality etc. All without using markets much at all which is like trying to play tennis with a cricket bat, I would imagine.
The USSR was never socialist. The revolution was hijacked by the Bolsheviks. The welfare and prosperity of the people was never their strong point.
But I agree that totalitarian states can achieve a lot very quickly.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
To be fair to the USSR they did achieve some remarkable things. The growth in living standards,

???? I'm not sure you can include that one. The others are somewhat dubious IMO Screen Shot 2022-01-14 at 7.22.22 AM.pngScreen Shot 2022-01-14 at 7.21.33 AM.pngScreen Shot 2022-01-14 at 7.21.21 AM.png
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
I also wonder how many people are actually coveting the rich people's money. Another no no.
Or perhaps people are "coveting" food and medicine for sick and starving children, but an additional yacht to the fleet is more important, praise the Lord.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
The USSR was never socialist.
We can probably agree that whatever it was it didn't do what we would want from a socialist republic.

???? I'm not sure you can include that one. The others are somewhat dubious IMO
I've read that measures like consumption and child heights skyrocketed in the post war years then stagnated towards the end of the 70s. That isn't an altogether unsimilar story to the West during the period.

It is hard to know who to trust when it comes to all this stuff.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Or perhaps people are "coveting" food and medicine for sick and starving children, but an additional yacht to the fleet is more important, praise the Lord.

Please send them to churches... they will help...

And please sell your stuff and help them too. Your computer, your extra TV, some of your furniture. I can help you in other areas too.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I've read that measures like consumption and child heights skyrocketed in the post war years then stagnated towards the end of the 70s. That isn't an altogether unsimilar story to the West during the period.

It is hard to know who to trust when it comes to all this stuff.

It is hard to trust, so true.

I have a pastor friend (acquaintance) who started a church not too long after the wall came down. It was a disaster of a country,. (They now have multiple churches and since then, because of more freedoms, it has improved immensely.)

So I definitely wouldn't trust figures coming out of USSR since it was highly controlled.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Yes... that is absolutely true. As it is in any faith. King Ahab had the same problem as well as many religious people in the time of Jesus.
Hello Ken.....
Did you want me to refocus to some other time, place, culture.....or whatever? :)
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Please send them to churches... they will help...

And please sell your stuff and help them too. Your computer, your extra TV, some of your furniture. I can help you in other areas too.

That is what Christ taught, but I'm not among those who claim to follow Christ, which is the topic of this discussion. It's okay if you don't want to follow Christ, but be honest about it and renounce your faith. And do you really believe most churches would be so open and generous? They don't want lowly riff raff sullying their sanctum.
That said, I do donate to charity and if I had vast wealth I would do more.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
That is what Christ taught, but I'm not among those who claim to follow of Christ, which is topic of this discussion. It's okay if you don't want to follow Christ, but be honest about it and renounce your faith. And you do you really believe most churches would be so open and generous? They don't want lowly riff raff sullying their sanctum.
That said, I do donate to charity and if I had vast wealth I would do more.
Yet, when you judge, you are judged.

And you really haven't presented all that Jesus taught nor do you break down what he said correctly.

And, Yes, most churches would be open and generous. And we specialize in making beautiful things out of lowly riff raff. :)
 
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