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‘Free will’ is not an excuse for God allowing atrocities.

Q

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
When I ask believers why their god would allow a serial killer to abuse and murder a dozen innocent children over the course of his lifetime, I am often told that god is helpless to intervene because he gave us all ‘free will’ and that to intervene would be a violation of that ‘free will’. It sounds reasonable at first glance, but this argument doesn’t hold up under scrutiny.

I agree that if god were to snap his metaphorical fingers and magically take away the serial killer’s perverse desires or temporarily paralyze him any time he attempted to commit a wicked act that it would be a violation of free will. But why doesn’t god just snap his metaphorical fingers and give the guy a lethal heat attack? Obviously god deciding when a person’s life will come to an end isn’t a violation of their free will otherwise every single person who has ever died unwillingly has had their free will violated, which pretty much includes everyone except for people who commit suicide, sacrifice their lives for others, or are experiencing unendurable suffering.

So after this guy kills his first innocent child why doesn’t god decide to bring his life to an end? Even if god wanted to give the guy the chance to repent and seek forgiveness for his sins, why didn’t god give him a heart attack after the second innocent victim or the third? Why would a loving and caring god allow this maniac to kill a dozen little children and end up dying peacefully in his sleep in his late 80’s?


It obviously has nothing to do with god being helpless to intervene because of the killer’s free will.
 
SomeRandom

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
That’s a very Abrahamic approach. Many religions seem content to see evil in the world as just evil existing. To be penalised in the future by a deity of some description. In other words, reality is what it is and it would be pointless to complain about it. Why not actively try to discourage or prevent crime? God gave us a brain, why not use it to solve our own issues?

Of course I’m not particularly theistically inclined. Merely playing devils advocate, so to speak
 
Sgt. Pepper

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
QuestioningMind said:
When I ask believers why their god would allow a serial killer to abuse and murder a dozen innocent children over the course of his lifetime, I am often told that god is helpless to intervene because he gave us all ‘free will’ and that to intervene would be a violation of that ‘free will’. It sounds reasonable at first glance, but this argument doesn’t hold up under scrutiny.

I agree that if god were to snap his metaphorical fingers and magically take away the serial killer’s perverse desires or temporarily paralyze him any time he attempted to commit a wicked act that it would be a violation of free will. But why doesn’t god just snap his metaphorical fingers and give the guy a lethal heat attack? Obviously god deciding when a person’s life will come to an end isn’t a violation of their free will otherwise every single person who has ever died unwillingly has had their free will violated, which pretty much includes everyone except for people who commit suicide, sacrifice their lives for others, or are experiencing unendurable suffering.

So after this guy kills his first innocent child why doesn’t god decide to bring his life to an end? Even if god wanted to give the guy the chance to repent and seek forgiveness for his sins, why didn’t god give him a heart attack after the second innocent victim or the third? Why would a loving and caring god allow this maniac to kill a dozen little children and end up dying peacefully in his sleep in his late 80’s?

It obviously has nothing to do with god being helpless to intervene because of the killer’s free will.
Click to expand...

That's a good OP, and it's very thoughtful, in my opinion. You and I seem to be thinking the same thing. I started this thread, Is it reasonable to believe in a 'loving, merciful' God? just the other day with a similar OP. FWIW, I agree with your assessment.
 
robocop (actually)

robocop (actually)

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
QuestioningMind said:
When I ask believers why their god would allow a serial killer to abuse and murder a dozen innocent children over the course of his lifetime, I am often told that god is helpless to intervene because he gave us all ‘free will’ and that to intervene would be a violation of that ‘free will’. It sounds reasonable at first glance, but this argument doesn’t hold up under scrutiny.

I agree that if god were to snap his metaphorical fingers and magically take away the serial killer’s perverse desires or temporarily paralyze him any time he attempted to commit a wicked act that it would be a violation of free will. But why doesn’t god just snap his metaphorical fingers and give the guy a lethal heat attack? Obviously god deciding when a person’s life will come to an end isn’t a violation of their free will otherwise every single person who has ever died unwillingly has had their free will violated, which pretty much includes everyone except for people who commit suicide, sacrifice their lives for others, or are experiencing unendurable suffering.

So after this guy kills his first innocent child why doesn’t god decide to bring his life to an end? Even if god wanted to give the guy the chance to repent and seek forgiveness for his sins, why didn’t god give him a heart attack after the second innocent victim or the third? Why would a loving and caring god allow this maniac to kill a dozen little children and end up dying peacefully in his sleep in his late 80’s?


It obviously has nothing to do with god being helpless to intervene because of the killer’s free will.
Click to expand...
God has to be complete in the Universe and that's impossible without creating evil aspects to it as well as good...

Forget it! You all won't understand!
 
Brian2

Brian2

Veteran Member
QuestioningMind said:
When I ask believers why their god would allow a serial killer to abuse and murder a dozen innocent children over the course of his lifetime, I am often told that god is helpless to intervene because he gave us all ‘free will’ and that to intervene would be a violation of that ‘free will’. It sounds reasonable at first glance, but this argument doesn’t hold up under scrutiny.

I agree that if god were to snap his metaphorical fingers and magically take away the serial killer’s perverse desires or temporarily paralyze him any time he attempted to commit a wicked act that it would be a violation of free will. But why doesn’t god just snap his metaphorical fingers and give the guy a lethal heat attack? Obviously god deciding when a person’s life will come to an end isn’t a violation of their free will otherwise every single person who has ever died unwillingly has had their free will violated, which pretty much includes everyone except for people who commit suicide, sacrifice their lives for others, or are experiencing unendurable suffering.

So after this guy kills his first innocent child why doesn’t god decide to bring his life to an end? Even if god wanted to give the guy the chance to repent and seek forgiveness for his sins, why didn’t god give him a heart attack after the second innocent victim or the third? Why would a loving and caring god allow this maniac to kill a dozen little children and end up dying peacefully in his sleep in his late 80’s?


It obviously has nothing to do with god being helpless to intervene because of the killer’s free will.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you want God to stop us from doing anything evil.
That would make it hard for God to judge us. All we would have to say is that we did not do anything evil. Then God would say that He has stopped us. Then we would say that we wouldn't have done it anyway.
OR maybe you are just saying that God is evil if He exists.
 
Shadow Wolf

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
QuestioningMind said:
When I ask believers why their god would allow a serial killer to abuse and murder a dozen innocent children over the course of his lifetime, I am often told that god is helpless to intervene because he gave us all ‘free will’ and that to intervene would be a violation of that ‘free will’. It sounds reasonable at first glance, but this argument doesn’t hold up under scrutiny.

I agree that if god were to snap his metaphorical fingers and magically take away the serial killer’s perverse desires or temporarily paralyze him any time he attempted to commit a wicked act that it would be a violation of free will. But why doesn’t god just snap his metaphorical fingers and give the guy a lethal heat attack? Obviously god deciding when a person’s life will come to an end isn’t a violation of their free will otherwise every single person who has ever died unwillingly has had their free will violated, which pretty much includes everyone except for people who commit suicide, sacrifice their lives for others, or are experiencing unendurable suffering.

So after this guy kills his first innocent child why doesn’t god decide to bring his life to an end? Even if god wanted to give the guy the chance to repent and seek forgiveness for his sins, why didn’t god give him a heart attack after the second innocent victim or the third? Why would a loving and caring god allow this maniac to kill a dozen little children and end up dying peacefully in his sleep in his late 80’s?


It obviously has nothing to do with god being helpless to intervene because of the killer’s free will.
Click to expand...
Assuming you are referring to Christians, those who accept free will need it to exist to keep everything together, because without free will it means their god isn't so loving and merciful after all.
And they rarely are any good at debating for the existence of free will.
 
Shadow Wolf

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Brian2 said:
Sounds like you want God to stop us from doing anything evil.
That would make it hard for God to judge us. All we would have to say is that we did not do anything evil. Then God would say that He has stopped us. Then we would say that we wouldn't have done it anyway.
OR maybe you are just saying that God is evil if He exists.
Click to expand...
Anyone who looks upon a woman and lusts after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Matthew 5:28
Sounds like Jehovah judges not just our actions but our thoughts as well. And if Jehovah is omniscient, why does he need us to act bad to judge us? He already knows what is in our heart.
 
Sgt. Pepper

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
robocop (actually) said:
God has to be complete in the Universe and that's impossible without creating evil aspects to it as well as good...

Forget it! You all won't understand!
Click to expand...

Try us. We might surprise you. I'm an ex-Christian, after being a Christian for 31 years. That being said, I'm well aware of the usual Christianese that most Christians use to justify God's atrocious behavior. I doubt there's something you will say that I don't already know, to be honest. Why do you believe in God? 1 Peter 3:15 says, "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect." So, will you answer my question?
 
Last edited:
We Never Know

We Never Know

No Slack
QuestioningMind said:
When I ask believers why their god would allow a serial killer to abuse and murder a dozen innocent children over the course of his lifetime, I am often told that god is helpless to intervene because he gave us all ‘free will’ and that to intervene would be a violation of that ‘free will’. It sounds reasonable at first glance, but this argument doesn’t hold up under scrutiny.

I agree that if god were to snap his metaphorical fingers and magically take away the serial killer’s perverse desires or temporarily paralyze him any time he attempted to commit a wicked act that it would be a violation of free will. But why doesn’t god just snap his metaphorical fingers and give the guy a lethal heat attack? Obviously god deciding when a person’s life will come to an end isn’t a violation of their free will otherwise every single person who has ever died unwillingly has had their free will violated, which pretty much includes everyone except for people who commit suicide, sacrifice their lives for others, or are experiencing unendurable suffering.

So after this guy kills his first innocent child why doesn’t god decide to bring his life to an end? Even if god wanted to give the guy the chance to repent and seek forgiveness for his sins, why didn’t god give him a heart attack after the second innocent victim or the third? Why would a loving and caring god allow this maniac to kill a dozen little children and end up dying peacefully in his sleep in his late 80’s?


It obviously has nothing to do with god being helpless to intervene because of the killer’s free will.
Click to expand...

If no one had free will, would we all be like robots?
 
robocop (actually)

robocop (actually)

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Sgt. Pepper said:
Try us. We might surprise you. I'm an ex-Christian, after being a Christian for 31 years. That being said, I'm well aware of the usual Christianese that most Christians use to justify God's atrocious behavior. I doubt there's something you will say that I don't already know, to be honest. Why do you believe in God? 1 Peter 3:15 says, "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect." So, will you answer my question?
Click to expand...
I already answered your question. Like I thought, you didn't understand. That's why I was so frustrated before you even replied.
 
Q

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Brian2 said:
Sounds like you want God to stop us from doing anything evil.
That would make it hard for God to judge us. All we would have to say is that we did not do anything evil. Then God would say that He has stopped us. Then we would say that we wouldn't have done it anyway.
OR maybe you are just saying that God is evil if He exists.
Click to expand...

Not sure how you could have possibly heard that from what I wrote. I never suggested that god should prevent us from being able to do wrong. I'm asking why didn't god judge this serial killer to be unworthy of being allowed to continue to exist with his other creations after the third or fourth senseless murder instead of letting him kill 12 innocent children and die in his sleep after nearly 9 decades.
 
Q

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
robocop (actually) said:
Well, I don't know if members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe in free will,

but personally I don't believe in Free Will or time.

I do however believe in God and in consciousness.
Click to expand...

If you don't believe in free will then clearly you don't think that free will is a valid argument for why god allows atrocities.
 
We Never Know

We Never Know

No Slack
QuestioningMind said:
Why do you ask? I'm certainly not advocating for there being no free will.
Click to expand...

I'm just simply asking.
If people had no free will to chose, who would tell them...for example what their favorite color is? What their favorite food is?

People would be like programmed robots awaiting to be told orders.
 
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