The new Athiest Humanities downfall?

[Sheldon]

I didn't know you're a Limey.
Now you really must be stopped !!!

I am in point of fact Welsh.

 

[RestlessSoul]

People are paid to work Sundays.
Anyone who doesn't like it can refuse or quit.
This is better than government telling us when
we can shop & work....& when we can't (IMO).
You're more comfortable with them controlling
us for our own good than I am.

Yeah, if you don’t like it you can quit; the refrain of the inconsiderate employer everywhere.

You and I have different ideas about who and what is exerting unwelcome control over our lives; this is probably cultural.

I do not consider government or the law to be the enemy of the people. I consider unregulated capitalism to be a far greater threat to the dignity of working people, than government, the purpose of which is to protect and enshrine in law the rights of the common man and woman.

To frame this argument in American terms, I’d say the exploiters of working people are more likely to be found in Wall Street, than Washington. But when the latter serve only the interests of the former, good luck with that.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Well no one has to work Sundays, there are plenty of jobs where they would be optional. Especially in a city like London..

I'm inclined to agree, and I have worked plenty of Sundays, and been paid pretty well for it. I have also taken many off and enjoyed myself. I wouldn't work for anyone who insisted I had to work every Sunday, and in London Jobs are a lot easier to come by than other parts of the UK.

In a nutshell; I’m alright, Jack.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I am in point of fact Welsh.

Do you know the origin of the word "Welsh"? And what is "Welsh" in Welsh and not English?

 

[Revoltingest]

Yeah, if you don’t like it you can quit; the refrain of the inconsiderate employer everywhere.

It is nonetheless a valuable liberty.
I've quit jobs I didn't like.
I never expected my employer to change
their business to suit my desires.

You and I have different ideas about who and what is exerting unwelcome control over our lives; this is probably cultural.

I'm a libertarian.
You're a big government type.
But there are useful compromises.

I remember it being illegal to work & shop on Sunday
(for some) in Baltimore. At least now there's more choice
for all. Choice doesn't make everyone happy.
But I prefer it to government running our lives based upon
its idea of what we should do & feel.

I do not consider government or the law to be the enemy of the people.

You should consider it. There are very evil laws,
eg, that cops can confiscate cash if they find us
in possession of more than a few hundred dollars.

I consider unregulated capitalism to be a far greater threat to the dignity of working people, than government, the purpose of which is to protect and enshrine in law the rights of the common man and woman.

There is no unregulated capitalism here.
Where are you seeing it?

To frame this argument in American terms, I’d say the exploiters of working people are more likely to be found in Wall Street, than Washington. But when the latter serve only the interests of the former, good luck with that.

I'd rather be exploited by capitalism than by socialism.
When "the people" (which is government) are the only
employer, quitting a job has severe problems.

 

[RestlessSoul]

It is nonetheless a valuable liberty.
I've quit jobs I didn't like.
I never expected my employer to change
their business to suit my desires.

I'm a libertarian.
You're a big government type.
But there are useful compromises.

I remember it being illegal to work & shop on Sunday
(for some) in Baltimore. At least now there's more choice
for all. Choice doesn't make everyone happy.
But I prefer it to government running our lives based upon
its idea of what we should do & feel.

You should consider it. There are very evil laws,
eg, that cops can confiscate cash if they find us
in possession of more than a few hundred dollars.

There is no unregulated capitalism here.
Where are you seeing it?

I'd rather be exploited by capitalism than by socialism.
When "the people" (which is government) are the only
employer, quitting a job has severe problems.

Well rampant materialism and the worship of money continues to dominate our culture, and to increase it’s influence around the world, so you can be happy that you are on the winning side, for now.

You know the movie The Big Lebowski? There’s a scene where the rich guy’s agent tells the hippy slacker, “Your revolution is over. The bums lost.” Maybe so, for now. But there’ll be other revolutions. There always are.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well rampant materialism and the worship of money continues to dominate our culture, and to increase it’s influence around the world, so you can be happy that you are on the winning side, for now.

I prefer that individuals have the right to choose
materialism or whatever alternatives you envision.
Tis better than government choosing for us...even
though they know better.

You know the movie The Big Lebowski? There’s a scene where the rich guy’s agent tells the hippy slacker, “Your revolution is over. The bums lost.” Maybe so, for now. But there’ll be other revolutions. There always are.

I've seen the movie.
Not the Cohen Bros best effort.
But I'd rather be monied than a bum.
When the revolution comes, woe to the bums.

 

[Augustus]

Was Marx's thinking influential in the Soviet Union's Communist Party?

No, and the idea that you paraphrased wasn't either,

Marxism wasn't influential in the Soviet Union whose official ideology was acknowledged to be Marxism-Leninism?

And if you meant something equally irrational like "Obviously Marxism was influential in the Soviet Union, except the anti-religious bits..."

Lenin:

The philosophical basis of Marxism, as Marx and Engels repeatedly declared, is dialectical materialism, which has fully taken over the historical traditions of eighteenth-century materialism in France and of Feuerbach (first half of the nineteenth century) in Germany—a materialism which is absolutely atheistic and positively hostile to all religion. Let us recall that the whole of Engels’s Anti-Dühring, which Marx read in manuscript, is an indictment of the materialist and atheist Dühring for not being a consistent materialist and for leaving loopholes for religion and religious philosophy. Let us recall that in his essay on Ludwig Feuerbach, Engels reproaches Feuerbach for combating religion not in order to destroy it, but in order to renovate it, to invent a new, “exalted” religion, and so forth. Religion is the opium of the people—this dictum by Marx is the corner-stone of the whole Marxist outlook on religion.

Lenin - The Attitude of the Workers’ Party to Religion


Who to believe? Internet chap or Lenin?

Tough call...

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

If only you could understand that all beliefs are real. But you can't or won't so you're never going to understand theism.

I agree that all beliefs are real -- to those who hold them. But they do NOT reify the things believed.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

It wasn’t that long ago where I live - well, not much more than 40 years - when you couldn’t buy anything on a Sunday. And unless you worked for the emergency services, or were clergy, everyone had the day off. Families could be together, commerce and the heartbreaking struggle to make money stopped for a day; and a city the size of London stopped and breathed once a week, every week.

Now, commerce carries on round the clock, seven days a week, it never stops. People are bullied into working Sundays. My partner works in a wine shop and hardly ever gets a Sunday off. I really don’t see this particular trend, from God to Mammon, as any sort of progress.

And I don't see it as particularly beneficial that in a large city with limited park space, that those spaces are unvisited all the week long, and too crowded to get into when everybody is off on the same day.

 

[Sheldon]

Yeah, if you don’t like it you can quit; the refrain of the inconsiderate employer everywhere.

Maybe, but is a right all employees have of course.

You and I have different ideas about who and what is exerting unwelcome control over our lives; this is probably cultural.

Well I live in the UK, and jobs are a lot harder to come by where I live than in London, where I have worked btw.

I do not consider government or the law to be the enemy of the people. I consider unregulated capitalism to be a far greater threat to the dignity of working people, than government, the purpose of which is to protect and enshrine in law the rights of the common man and woman.

Well there are jobs where Sundays working is necessary, if you don't want to work Sunday then why not take another job?

 

[Sheldon]

In a nutshell; I’m alright, Jack.

Not at all, I have struggled many times to find work, after 9/11 the aviation industry collapsed and the factory i worked in closed, all my savings had been in the stock market which collapsed, I was forced to travel to find work, and yes I worked Sundays if it was needed, as I have done many times. Covid has again lost me my job, and I got divorced the same day, losing all my savings to an avaricious ex wife, I had also worked very hard and planned to retire this year, as my health has been a struggle.

Whining about it is pointless, if you don't want to work Sundays then don't, there is no law forcing anyone to after all.

 

[Sheldon]

Marxism wasn't influential in the Soviet Union whose official ideology was acknowledged to be Marxism-Leninism?

You're taking that out of context, we were discussing one single point, which is what I was referring to, not Marxist economics in it's entirety.

 

[PureX]

People find many different things to lend meaning to their lives, no one is denying that, but that doesn't mean that what they imagine has created that meaning is necessarily real or extant.

What you keep failing to understand is that the phenomena you just described is real and extant.
You are hopelessly stuck on the idea that imagination isn't "real" because what is being imagined isn't physical. But imagination is real, and so are the images and ideas that our imaginations generate. Because physicality does not define the limits of reality. And until you allow this realization into your mind, you are doomed to remain ignorant about the whole phenomenon of theism. Because theism is primarily a metaphysical phenomenon.

You keep making this accusation that atheists don't understand your beliefs, but the fact is I have over many years seen identical claims from innumerable theists for different deities and religions. I cannot believe them all, have not experienced what they claim to have, and since none can offer any objective difference between their beliefs and all the others, the only option I can rationally take is to withhold belief, and remain agnostic about their claims when those claims are unfalsifiable.

And you understood none of them, clearly. Because for one thing, you are refusing to recognize the difference between religion and theism. You cannot understand or debate theism using a materialist paradigm. So you run to religion and attack it, instead. But even there, all you're attacking are the stories and images being used to represent God, not the God they mean to represent. But you can't recognize the difference, because your own philosophical materialism isn't capable of distinguishing that difference. Every time you harp on a lack of "falsifiability" you are talking about your own philosophical materialism and how it is unable to address any metaphysical phenomena. And the problem isn't the metaphysical phenomena, as that clearly exists. It's that your materialist paradigm is too narrow to comprehend it. But instead of accepting this, you just keep swinging wildly in 'auto-defense' mode, spewing whatever nonsensical objections you can think of to deflect from that simple fact that your own world-view is too small and biased to comprehend theism as a cognitive human phenomenon.

 

[Augustus]

You're taking that out of context, we were discussing one single point, which is what I was referring to, not Marxist economics in it's entirety.

Lenin:

The philosophical basis of Marxism, as Marx and Engels repeatedly declared, is dialectical materialism, which has fully taken over the historical traditions of eighteenth-century materialism in France and of Feuerbach (first half of the nineteenth century) in Germany—a materialism which is absolutely atheistic and positively hostile to all religion. Let us recall that the whole of Engels’s Anti-Dühring, which Marx read in manuscript, is an indictment of the materialist and atheist Dühring for not being a consistent materialist and for leaving loopholes for religion and religious philosophy. Let us recall that in his essay on Ludwig Feuerbach, Engels reproaches Feuerbach for combating religion not in order to destroy it, but in order to renovate it, to invent a new, “exalted” religion, and so forth. Religion is the opium of the people—this dictum by Marx is the corner-stone of the whole Marxist outlook on religion.

Lenin - The Attitude of the Workers’ Party to Religion

 

[lukethethird]

I said celestial beings are outside of our range of vision unless they want to be seen. If you can’t process that maybe you shouldn’t be on a discussion forum?

Wiggle room.

 

[F1fan]

So this is religion?
-the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

That is a general definition. It surely won't apply to Hindu gods since their gods are not all superhuman. It wouldn't apply to native American religion.

Religions are very diverse and broad, and a single definition will have to be very broad as well to apply to the whole social and cultural phenomenon.

 

[F1fan]

Revelations are as factual as those who deny that they ever happened.

This is an exceptional nonsense statement.

 

[PureX]

I agree that all beliefs are real -- to those who hold them. But they do NOT reify the things believed.

That hardly matters. Especially as validity depends almost entirely on functionality, NOT physicality.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Not at all, I have struggled many times to find work, after 9/11 the aviation industry collapsed and the factory i worked in closed, all my savings had been in the stock market which collapsed, I was forced to travel to find work, and yes I worked Sundays if it was needed, as I have done many times. Covid has again lost me my job, and I got divorced the same day, losing all my savings to an avaricious ex wife, I had also worked very hard and planned to retire this year, as my health has been a struggle.

Whining about it is pointless, if you don't want to work Sundays then don't, there is no law forcing anyone to after all.

Sorry to hear all that. Hope 2022 works out better for you