Near Death experiences and the scientific method.

[Ben Dhyan]

I'm not saying that as an atheist. I'm saying it as a person who wishes to think rationally and wants to believe as many true things as possible and as few false things as possible.

If you want to "keep my feet to the flame" I'll need to see some evidence for your claims about souls and such.

There is a distinct difference in the way atheists think, compared to non-atheists, in fact every human being has a unique perspective on life, so there is no problem, it's just the way it is. So I wish you peace as I treasure it in my own existence.

 

[SkepticThinker]

The evidence is in the understanding realized when the mind is free from thought, it is not a belief that can be explained. There is no intention to influence anyone to seek this understanding, the world is perfect as it is, always..

So it is illogical for your mind's thought processes to cease when you sleep. how do you prevent it?
So it is illogical for anyone to practice Dhyan, Chan, Zen, meditation?

That's not evidence. It's just fluffy language that doesn't mean much of anything.

Our mind's thought processes don't cease when we sleep. If that were the case, we wouldn't dream.

 

[SkepticThinker]

There is a distinct difference in the way atheists think, compared to non-atheists, in fact every human being has a unique perspective on life, so there is no problem, it's just the way it is. So I wish you peace as I treasure it in my own existence.

That's obvious.

My point is that there shouldn't be.
There is no "your logic" and "my logic." There is just logic.
You want us to throw that away when it comes to spiritual beliefs and just go on faith (or whatever) which illustrates the fact that you don't have any good evidence, otherwise you would provide it instead of appealing to faith. And since anything can be believed on faith, it is not a pathway to truth.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

That's not evidence. It's just fluffy language that doesn't mean much of anything.

Our mind's thought processes don't cease when we sleep. If that were the case, we wouldn't dream.

Strawman! I didn't claim objective evidence.
Of course thought processes cease when you sleep, and certainly when you are in the deep meditative state. The Theta brain wave state of 4 - 7 Hz is experienced in both dream state and shallow meditative state, there are processes going on in the brain, but it is not thinking. The Delta wave state of 0.5 to 4 Hz occur when you are in dreamless sleep state and also in the deep meditative state. The ego self is not present in this state.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

That's obvious.

My point is that there shouldn't be.
There is no "your logic" and "my logic." There is just logic.
You want us to throw that away when it comes to spiritual beliefs and just go on faith (or whatever) which illustrates the fact that you don't have any good evidence, otherwise you would provide it instead of appealing to faith. And since anything can be believed on faith, it is not a pathway to truth.

How many times must I repeat, the spiritual state is not dualistic. whether you believe this is true or believe it is not true is irrelevant, beliefs are not real, merely opinions.. The non-dual state of mind is what people who have realized it call the spiritual state in order to explain conceptually what the reality is like to those who have not yet realized that state, The explanation is the 'pointing finger' not the reality, it is a conceptualization to guide the aspirant, and not to be just believed If you are not an aspirant, it is irrelevant to you, but for the sake of clarity, there is no intention for anyone to believe anything.

Some people are more curious then others as to what and who they are in the big picture of universal existence, they are not prepared to take anyone's explanation as a tenet to believe in, religious prophets, philosophers, scientists, etc.. They do not want to be a mere actor who just remembers their lines as they go through life, but someone real who understands what and who they really are. It is a path of discovery, not a stagnant belief. .

 

[rational experiences]

Everyone is a human.

You would ask a scientist also just a human what are you researching our life mind body for when we all own it first?

Equally a human first. Equally not science first.

Why don't you answer a legal lawful answer just the human first?

In science we are advised science wants the creator.

Reasoned as what humans are aware of in mind.

Yet unlike a human spiritual thinker they want it to convert it into a new resource.

Hence in reality it owns no sensible thesis.

The claim. If a spiritual parent came direct out of the creator source and only came into presence after the earth's heavens existed. Then a human has the highest source contact.

In other words let me burn you all to death in layman's terms.

 

[night912]

I and others who have experienced know.

Have you ever experienced a hallucination? How are you able to tell the difference between a hallucination and something that wasn't?

 

[night912]

Sure I have given a lot of evidence in the form of videos.

What's the difference between somebody telling a lie in a video and them telling the exact same lie right in front of you? (I'm using the word, "lie" in this case to mean, making a statement that is not true) There is no difference. The evidence that the person was lying, are neither the words that were spoken in the video or those that were spoken right in front of you. The evidence can only be found "outside" of those words. Those words are what is being investigated to see whether or not the person was lying.

The question here is, was that person lying? It's only rational to make the conclusion that the person was lying once sufficient evidence has been found. Making a conclusion when no sufficient evidence has been found, whether you believe that the person was a lying, you wanting it to be a lie, or you not knowing much about the subject of the statement, would be irrational.

Now replace "statement" with the "mystery" that numerous people have experienced. Without sufficient evidence to show whether or not it was a NDE, it's only rational to hold the position of "we don't know what's going on."

 

[gnostic]

Religion does not do science, and likewise science does not do religion.

This part, I would totally agree.

I have always made the distinction between religion and science...and I have frequently pointed out they are not the same.

The rest...

If you do not do religion, then fine, stick with what you feel is appropriate. The point I've been making is that the reality represented by the concept of God is perceivable, but not through dualistic approach, it is only a subjective perception that is beyond thought, the religious meditative approach.
Consider before you reply and understand that if you have not realized the divine within, then wrt God, you not only don't know, you do not even know what you do not know.

...not so much.

First.

Being agnostic, don't mean I an not interested in religions, so I don’t see why I must not talk about religions or as you put it “do not do religion”.

But the question is about religion, but the claims made by you and others in regarding to NDE and there have been claims of soul or spirit, and the out-of-body event.

While I don’t deny that people have come back to life after being diagnosed Andrew declared “clinically dead” for some time, it is those claims of the supernatural, the spiritual aspects and the claims of the afterlife that I am skeptical of.

The problems here, is that you, as well as Lekatt, have claimed there are “evidence” to these claims.

Now, you can believe what you claims all you want, except that you have “evidence” for what you believe.

You don’t have any such “evidence”; these claims are merely personal beliefs, they are not scientific evidence.

If they were evidence, then anyone could observe, measure, test and verify these claims, but the reality is they only exist in belief.

So perhaps you should stick to religion and leave science out of what you believe in, because you have “no” scientific evidence about spiritual aspects to NDE.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

This part, I would totally agree.

I have always made the distinction between religion and science...and I have frequently pointed out they are not the same.

The rest...


...not so much.

First.

Being agnostic, don't mean I an not interested in religions, so I don’t see why I must not talk about religions or as you put it “do not do religion”.

But the question is about religion, but the claims made by you and others in regarding to NDE and there have been claims of soul or spirit, and the out-of-body event.

While I don’t deny that people have come back to life after being diagnosed Andrew declared “clinically dead” for some time, it is those claims of the supernatural, the spiritual aspects and the claims of the afterlife that I am skeptical of.

The problems here, is that you, as well as Lekatt, have claimed there are “evidence” to these claims.

Now, you can believe what you claims all you want, except that you have “evidence” for what you believe.

You don’t have any such “evidence”; these claims are merely personal beliefs, they are not scientific evidence.

If they were evidence, then anyone could observe, measure, test and verify these claims, but the reality is they only exist in belief.

So perhaps you should stick to religion and leave science out of what you believe in, because you have “no” scientific evidence about spiritual aspects to NDE.

This is my understanding on the veracity of NDE claims and the meaning of subjective evidence, I have never claimed I have objective evidence per se, nor subjective evidence personally.

I made this comment to you earlier, "Has your mind ever been stunned by say, the awesome beauty of a sunrise, during that moment, there is no duality of the mind, no awareness present of a seer of the sunrise and the seeing of the sunrise, there is just subjective seeing. When the subjective experience is over, the mind reverts to duality, it remembers the sight of the beautiful sunrise, this is now an objective view of the sunrise, you now may have an opinion of the sunrise, you believe it was a beautiful sunrise."

Now I have personally many times experienced this sort of temporary non-dual state of mind, but there is no way I can prove objectively to anyone that I had the said experience. But I certainly am not going to deny I had the experience just because I can't prove to anyone else. So what if you or anyone else demand evidence before they will accept my veracity, my subjective evidence trumps any objective evidence by far even if it was available, which it is not. Retelling, remembering, explaining, reading about, etc., the subjective experience can not bring it back because my mind in examining the 'pointing finger', ie., it is acting dualistically, only the non-dual state of mind apprehended the subjective sunrise experience.

So I reason that not all these people, from all over the world, from all walks of life, from all times, who claim they had a subjective experience of an NDE, are lying or hallucinating or dreaming or some such, just because they can not provide objective evidence, for I understand that if they personally are convinced they had a subjective experience along the lines they describe, they probably did, and so, I give credence to the concept of NDEs. Direct evidence of an NDE can ONLY EVER be subjective, NEVER objective.

 

[Lekatt]

What's the difference between somebody telling a lie in a video and them telling the exact same lie right in front of you? (I'm using the word, "lie" in this case to mean, making a statement that is not true) There is no difference. The evidence that the person was lying, are neither the words that were spoken in the video or those that were spoken right in front of you. The evidence can only be found "outside" of those words. Those words are what is being investigated to see whether or not the person was lying.

The question here is, was that person lying? It's only rational to make the conclusion that the person was lying once sufficient evidence has been found. Making a conclusion when no sufficient evidence has been found, whether you believe that the person was a lying, you wanting it to be a lie, or you not knowing much about the subject of the statement, would be irrational.

Now replace "statement" with the "mystery" that numerous people have experienced. Without sufficient evidence to show whether or not it was a NDE, it's only rational to hold the position of "we don't know what's going on."

I have serious doubts about dozens of videos where all the people lie including surgeons and other medical staff. Also about the millions of experiencers who tell similar things about their experience, but if you see it that way it is OK with me. The truth can not be changed by anyone, What happens will happen.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I have serious doubts about dozens of videos where all the people lie including surgeons and other medical staff. Also about the millions of experiencers who tell similar things about their experience, but if you see it that way it is OK with me. The truth can not be changed by anyone, What happens will happen.

"millions" ey?

How about the "millions" that claim alien abduction and flying saucer sightings?
Anal probing on spaceships is a real thing, a claim to be taken seriously?

After all, many people believe it. So much so that they will pass lie detector tests even.
So I guess they must be telling the truth then?
And it's impossible that they are wrong?

 

[gnostic]

I made this comment to you earlier, "Has your mind ever been stunned by say, the awesome beauty of a sunrise, during that moment, there is no duality of the mind, no awareness present of a seer of the sunrise and the seeing of the sunrise, there is just subjective seeing. When the subjective experience is over, the mind reverts to duality, it remembers the sight of the beautiful sunrise, this is now an objective view of the sunrise, you now may have an opinion of the sunrise, you believe it was a beautiful sunrise."

Now I have personally many times experienced this sort of temporary non-dual state of mind, but there is no way I can prove objectively to anyone that I had the said experience. But I certainly am not going to deny I had the experience just because I can't prove to anyone else. So what if you or anyone else demand evidence before they will accept my veracity, my subjective evidence trumps any objective evidence by far even if it was available, which it is not. Retelling, remembering, explaining, reading about, etc., the subjective experience can not bring it back because my mind in examining the 'pointing finger', ie., it is acting dualistically, only the non-dual state of mind apprehended the subjective sunrise experience.

You don’t actually follow a religion, do you?

At first, I thought it may be one of the sects from Hinduism or from Buddhism, but you don’t.

There are hints of them, but only tiny traces from either, because of all your talks in past threads about the consciousness and Brahman. But your own belief are just some pale versions of both religions.

Whenever I thought I have figured out your religion, you switch from Hinduism to Buddhism, then back again, and again, until I started getting whiplashes.

You are definitely not Buddhist, (and I’ve only just realize this) because you’ve started talking about “beauty” of sunrise.

But a Buddhist would have seen the physical world as well as his or hers opinions (“beauty”) to be all illusions - the Maya.

So I am assuming that it is one of those New Age spiritualism, where you ripped off as many religions and philosophies as possible. Your belief is eclectic and syncretic.

I should have known.

So it would be pointless for me, to be arguing over your perverted ideas of subjective vs objective realities, because clearly such religions like yours, have the habits of twisting everything around.

I am done following your lead, wasting my time, chasing you down this rabbit hole that you have created for yourself.

 

[night912]

I have serious doubts about dozens of videos where all the people lie including surgeons and other medical staff. Also about the millions of experiencers who tell similar things about their experience, but if you see it that way it is OK with me. The truth can not be changed by anyone, What happens will happen.

Yep, that's why your strawman remains a strawman.

But let me ask you this. Why do you doubt the

of people who say that there's not enough evidence to confirm that the experiences were real NDE?

 

[night912]

I am done following your lead, wasting my time, chasing you down this rabbit hole that you have created for yourself.

Perhaps he's just paying homage to the Matrix.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Strawman! I didn't claim objective evidence.

Um okay. I didn't even mention the words "objective evidence."

Of course thought processes cease when you sleep, and certainly when you are in the deep meditative state. The Theta brain wave state of 4 - 7 Hz is experienced in both dream state and shallow meditative state, there are processes going on in the brain, but it is not thinking. The Delta wave state of 0.5 to 4 Hz occur when you are in dreamless sleep state and also in the deep meditative state.

They don't though. Hence the fact that we dream. The entire brain is active during REM sleep, even though our muscles are paralyzed.

The ego self is not present in this state.

Then please explain how we can be aware of ourselves during our dreams and how we can be aware that we are in the middle of a dream, and try to wake up from it.


How Our Thoughts Change When We Fall Asleep
Consciousness across Sleep and Wake: Discontinuity and Continuity of Memory Experiences As a Reflection of Consolidation Processes
Brain Basics: Understanding Sleep | National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke

 

[SkepticThinker]

How many times must I repeat, the spiritual state is not dualistic. whether you believe this is true or believe it is not true is irrelevant, beliefs are not real, merely opinions..

I know that you believe that and you have asserted it umpteen times. But you have yet to demonstrate that anything spiritual is happening or even could happen.

You're trying to make your own special logic here that only works when we talk about this one thing but doesn't apply to anything else that actually exists. It's just special pleading.

The non-dual state of mind is what people who have realized it call the spiritual state in order to explain conceptually what the reality is like to those who have not yet realized that state, The explanation is the 'pointing finger' not the reality, it is a conceptualization to guide the aspirant, and not to be just believed If you are not an aspirant, it is irrelevant to you, but for the sake of clarity, there is no intention for anyone to believe anything.

You can't actually demonstrate any of it though, right? You've only got assertions.

More of this "you only believe it if you already believe it" stuff that gets us absolutely no where. Do you apply this to any other aspect of life, or just to this?

Some people are more curious then others as to what and who they are in the big picture of universal existence, they are not prepared to take anyone's explanation as a tenet to believe in, religious prophets, philosophers, scientists, etc.. They do not want to be a mere actor who just remembers their lines as they go through life, but someone real who understands what and who they really are. It is a path of discovery, not a stagnant belief. .

I want to believe as many true things as possible. The problem is, you can't demonstrate that what you're claiming is true, so I don't have any good reasons to believe it. You're not really giving me anything I can work with here.

 

[gnostic]

While I don’t deny that people have come back to life after being diagnosed Andrew declared “clinically dead” for some time

It should read “and”, not “Andrew”...

...the damn iPad’s auto-correct.

LOL

 

[Dan From Smithville]

It should read “and”, not “Andrew”...

...the damn iPad’s auto-correct.

LOL

Sometimes posts are as challenging as translating song lyrics.

I have what I think is a typical love/hate relationship with auto-correct.

Good news about Andrew though.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

You don’t actually follow a religion, do you?

At first, I thought it may be one of the sects from Hinduism or from Buddhism, but you don’t.

There are hints of them, but only tiny traces from either, because of all your talks in past threads about the consciousness and Brahman. But your own belief are just some pale versions of both religions.

Whenever I thought I have figured out your religion, you switch from Hinduism to Buddhism, then back again, and again, until I started getting whiplashes.

You are definitely not Buddhist, (and I’ve only just realize this) because you’ve started talking about “beauty” of sunrise.

But a Buddhist would have seen the physical world as well as his or hers opinions (“beauty”) to be all illusions - the Maya.

So I am assuming that it is one of those New Age spiritualism, where you ripped off as many religions and philosophies as possible. Your belief is eclectic and syncretic.

I should have known.

So it would be pointless for me, to be arguing over your perverted ideas of subjective vs objective realities, because clearly such religions like yours, have the habits of twisting everything around.

I am done following your lead, wasting my time, chasing you down this rabbit hole that you have created for yourself.

Ahem, you are a self proclaimed atheist gnostic, you don't practice religion, how on earth do to expect to understand my religious practice and understanding. Unless you love God with all your heart, mind, and soul, you can read about religion all your life and never understand, don't you see your problem. Yes, it is best if you stick to non-religious subjects, at least you will not be wasting your time as an atheist.