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Once a christian, always a christian

Simply that I've never seen them counted by testing whether they individually believe that Jesus is their savior or not ─ only by how they say theyidentify when the question of religion is asked. This relates to Hitler's having a social identity as a Christian.

Self-identifying voluntarily in a poll is not remotely similar to public propaganda by people aiming to acquire power who then change their stance once in power.

Donald Trump claims he is the least racist person in the world and no doubt some people believe him, should we simply say his 'social identity' is that of an anti-racist or see it as obvious propaganda?

The Vatican knew very well that he'd moved away from Christian morality ─ Pacelli certainly knew of the death camps by 1943 ─ but that didn't stop him continuing to deal with the Nazi regime, or to prefer it to communism, whose atheism, it appears, seemed much worse to him. Nor did it stop him from objecting in strong terms when the Allies (Casablanca 1932 Jan) determined to require Germany's 'unconditional surrender'.

What has that to do with Hitler's beliefs?

Also, I'd say it was communism's ruthless attempts to exterminate the Church rather than its 'atheism' that was concerning to the church. How should they have viewed an ideology with a decades long track record of trying to eradicate them?

Most people and institutions are primarily concerned with their own survival after all.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
You don't see a fundamental difference between a lukewarm cultural Christian being seen as Christian and a totalitarian despot who uses Christianity as a means to an end for propaganda purposes then starts to persecute it when in power and expresses continual hostility towards it due to its ideological incompatiblity with his goal?

I find the idea we should accept Nazi propaganda uncritically at face value while ignoring the factual evidence a bit bizarre.

There is a reason why almost all historians reject the idea he was a Christian, yet many people on the Internet who dislike religion seem to want him to be one. However, it's certainly not that the folks on the Internet have a better understanding of the evidence or a more rational and unbiased view of it.
Dislike and want to v religious and font want to
v actually the truly unbiased.
And the mirror image, theists who insist he was
atheist.
May Lord Godwin smite the lot.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I accept that church leaders - Catholic and Protestant - were often cowardly, and at times guilty of active collusion with the Nazis. I also accept that at the time the Nazis came to power, most Germans were nominally Christian.

However, the most cursory understanding of the message of the Gospels makes clear that everything Hitler and his thugs stood for, the horrors and destruction they unleashed on Europe, most particularly the holocaust and everything associated with it, was absolutely antithetical to Christ’s message.
Arguably, most of what the Republican party stands for is contrary to what Jesus taught. But this doesn't help Christians, most of whom are evangelicals and very fervent believers, adjust their political choices that reflect more concern for human welfare and less about money. Look at the anti-immigrant, anti-healthcare, nationalistic, and greedy attitudes rampant in conservative policies.

Humanity is to blame for the Nazis, not Christianity.

And humanity rose up and defeated Nazism. But it's notable that Christianity didn't give the German people enough wisdom and moral strength to say "no" to Nazism. I suspect most believers know that Christianity is full of crap, and that the whole promise of salvation is an absurd and irrational concept. I think we can blame Christianity historically for promoting these irrational ideas as literal, and not symbolic. Christianity teaches fear, and this is how many believers respond to everyday life.

The one thing every active Nazi, every collaborator, and every passive observer, has in common is that they were human beings. Nazi atrocities showed the world the depths of horror we are all capable of descending to, when we collectively surrender to the darkness in our hearts. This is the same darkness Christians believe Christ came to bring a candle into. The message of peace, love, and service to one’s fellows which the Jewish teacher Jesus of Nazareth taught is unequivocal; it’s there in the Gospels, and for many centuries it’s been translated into most languages including German.
According to literalist Christians all this is exactly as God created. So if God wanted some other outcome for humanity it should have created humans better.

Overpopulation of a species will result in competition over resources. And that is what war is, as Bronowski put it, highly organized theft.

For what it’s worth, I also think it’s an error to see Nazism as a German phenomenon. In the 19th Century Germany was a beacon of post enlightenment culture and civilisation. Berlin, Vienna and other cities were hubs of progressive thought in philosophy, science and the arts. If, following economic collapse, fascism could take hold in Mittel Europe less than a century after her cultural heyday, it can take hold anywhere. Which is a lesson for the citizens of democracies everywhere.
Higher culture is often above what drives and motivates the average citizen. Most people operate and function with a bare minimum of knowledge and rational skill. It is no wonder that the masses can be influenced and swayed to back immoral and unethical leadership. How so many citizens backed trump (TWICE!!!) is unbelievable. And many still support him despite the revelations of his highly unethical and criminal behavior. That is why Christianity can't work.
 
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F1fan

Veteran Member
You don't see a fundamental difference between a lukewarm cultural Christian being seen as Christian and a totalitarian despot who uses Christianity as a means to an end for propaganda purposes then starts to persecute it when in power and expresses continual hostility towards it due to its ideological incompatiblity with his goal?
Christianity as a whole is a theological buffet that includes everything from far left liberals to the KKK, and all in between. Thats why there are some 44,000 sects under the umbrella of Christianity that can appeal to anyone's moral outlook, including Nazis. Being a Christian doesn't tell us anything about a person, except that they have adopted a cultural label.
 
Christianity as a whole is a theological buffet that includes everything from far left liberals to the KKK, and all in between. Thats why there are some 44,000 sects under the umbrella of Christianity that can appeal to anyone's moral outlook, including Nazis. Being a Christian doesn't tell us anything about a person, except that they have adopted a cultural label.

Whether some Nazis were Christian is not the same as whether Hitler was a Christian.

The former is obviously true, the latter false.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
However, the most cursory understanding of the message of the Gospels makes clear that everything Hitler and his thugs stood for, the horrors and destruction they unleashed on Europe, most particularly the holocaust and everything associated with it, was absolutely antithetical to Christ’s message.

That seems like a no true Scotsman fallacy to me. Germans were overwhelmingly Christian, though some prominent Nazis were pagan theists, like Himmler of course. The Holocaust wasn't just down to Hitler or the Nazis either, the Catholic church, a few individual objections aside, signed a concordat with Nazism, and stood by, or even colluded in the persecution. Of course European Christianity has a long history of antisemitism, spanning centuries of persecutions and pogroms. The idea most Germans didn't know what was happening has never really stood up to scrutiny.

I accept that church leaders - Catholic and Protestant - were often cowardly, and at times guilty of active collusion with the Nazis. I also accept that at the time the Nazis came to power, most Germans were nominally Christian.

Well there you go, though the vast majority of Germans were Christians in 1939, there was a census I believe.



Humanity is to blame for the Nazis, not Christianity.

Humanity is to blame for the Christian religions as well, and of course European Christians have a long history of persecuting Jews, long before Nazism and the Holocaust.

The one thing every active Nazi, every collaborator, and every passive observer, has in common is that they were human beings.

Well that doesn't really tell us anything at all? A 1939 census demonstrated that over 94% of Germans identified as Christians. Oddly enough 100% of Christians are human?

Nazi atrocities showed the world the depths of horror we are all capable of descending to, when we collectively surrender to the darkness in our hearts.

What is showed is that once we abandon our critical reasoning, and submit to dogma, people tend to protest less and less and obey more and more.

Anyone who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

Voltaire..

This is the same darkness Christians believe Christ came to bring a candle into. The message of peace, love, and service to one’s fellows which the Jewish teacher Jesus of Nazareth taught is unequivocal;

I'm sorry but that is absurd, if it were true then why has Christianity such a long history of blood and violence from the crusades to the Holocaust? I sense another no treu Scotsman fallacy is imminent.

it’s there in the Gospels, and for many centuries it’s been translated into most languages including German.

As are a deity depicted as a violent sadistic psychopath, endorsing, encouraging and committing almost relentless acts of barbarism and mass murder. Despite these platitudes, you may claim you believe this to be the message of Christianity, but it's demonstrably clear many Christians do not share your views and have not shared them in the past.

For what it’s worth, I also think it’s an error to see Nazism as a German phenomenon. In the 19th Century Germany was a beacon of post enlightenment culture and civilisation. Berlin, Vienna and other cities were hubs of progressive thought in philosophy, science and the arts. If, following economic collapse, fascism could take hold in Mittel Europe less than a century after her cultural heyday, it can take hold anywhere. Which is a lesson for the citizens of democracies everywhere.

On that we can agree, the fledgling Weimar Republic had done well, to build a democratic country from the disastrous first world war, but their post war economy had been built on borrowing, largely from the USA, so when the Wall Street crash came, and the great depression and the US called in those loans, the German economy collapsed. The democracy was not robust enough to survive, and Hitler was waiting, as like all despots he was an opportunist, who knew how to prey on people's fear and ignorance.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Christianity as a whole is a theological buffet that includes everything from far left liberals to the KKK, and all in between. Thats why there are some 44,000 sects under the umbrella of Christianity that can appeal to anyone's moral outlook, including Nazis. Being a Christian doesn't tell us anything about a person, except that they have adopted a cultural label.

I'm inclined to agree. The mere mention of Hitler or Nazism is always a precursor to no true Scotsman fallacies, but this is both facile and irrational. I understand the impulse Christians have to distance their beliefs from the Holocaust, but the fact is that Christianity has a long history of such persecutions of those who openly profess not to share their beliefs, as do other religions, and political ideologies of course. Neither belief nor the lack of seem to guarantee anything. This seems apropos...

“With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.”
― Steven Weinberg

 
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Audie

Veteran Member
I'm inclined to agree. The mere mention of Holter or Nazism is always a precursor to no true Scotsman fallacies, but this is both facile and irrational. I understand the impulse Christians have to distance their beliefs from the Holocaust, but the fact is that Christianity has a long history of such persecutions of those who openly profess not to share their beliefs, as do other religions, and political ideologies of course.

A "Christian" told me he prays for Word
that its time to kill all the atheists, and
quoted the verses that vilify us.

He'd have me hanging from a lamp post.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
A "Christian" told me he prays for Word
that its time to kill all the atheists, and
quoted the verses that vilify us.

He'd have me hanging from a lamp post.


Well when theists use the argument from morality, one thing occurs to me every time, I do hope this person never loses their faith, if that's really their only reason to think actions like murder and rape are wrong.

If someone can condemn two consensual adults being in a loving relationship as a vile abomination, while simultaneously thinking a global genocide can be rationalised as ok, I'm not sure religious morals are all theists try to claim they are.

Give me subjective secular morality any day.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Well when theists use the argument from morality, one thing occurs to me every time, I do hope this person never loses their faith, if that's really their only reason to think actions like murder and rape are wrong.

If someone can condemn two consensual adults being in a loving relationship as a vile abomination, while simultaneously thinking a global genocide can be rationalised as ok, I'm not sure religious morals are all theists try to claim they are.

Give me subjective secular morality any day.
I just hope he quits praying as if he keeps it up,
the answer will eventually come.
If he doesnt like the answer and keeps it up,
he will get the answer he wants.
It wont be from God.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Whether some Nazis were Christian is not the same as whether Hitler was a Christian.

The former is obviously true, the latter false.
Well young Adolph was an alter boy. Most everyone in the West is influenced and exposed to Christianity of some type. It doesn't always stick, as many atheists will test to. As it is we have writings of Hitler as he refers to God, but nothing substantial about how much he accepted the dogma of Catholicism. He did adopt the anti-Semitism that was common in Europe and even the USA in that time. The Catholic church had no interest in Judaism or Jews, either.

I imagine his affiliation with religion was displaced by his interest in politics. He relied on nationalism and didn't need to exploit the people with religion, like trump did. trump was very eager to exploit people's Christianity when it served him. Notice he's made no reference to Jesus or Christianity since.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I'm inclined to agree. The mere mention of Hitler or Nazism is always a precursor to no true Scotsman fallacies, but this is both facile and irrational. I understand the impulse Christians have to distance their beliefs from the Holocaust, but the fact is that Christianity has a long history of such persecutions of those who openly profess not to share their beliefs, as do other religions, and political ideologies of course. Neither belief nor the lack of seem to guarantee anything. This seems apropos...

“With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.”
― Steven Weinberg
Right. Religion doesn't make bad people good, it gives them a useful authority to do evil.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
A "Christian" told me he prays for Word
that its time to kill all the atheists, and
quoted the verses that vilify us.

He'd have me hanging from a lamp post.
Those damn, pesky secular laws that don't allow God's chosen to wield his moral commands.
 

Lain

Well-Known Member
Those damn, pesky secular laws that don't allow God's chosen to wield his moral commands.

Truly depressing.

TwxD1IF.png


But wait... there's hope? Poggers!
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What has that to do with Hitler's beliefs?
That the social identity of a Christian doesn't depend on what the person actually believes or understands. That there are many Christians who either consciously or through indifference don't regard Jesus as their savior.
Also, I'd say it was communism's ruthless attempts to exterminate the Church rather than its 'atheism' that was concerning to the church. How should they have viewed an ideology with a decades long track record of trying to eradicate them?
As the French Revolution had showed in the 1790s, and the Spanish Civil War showed in the 1930s, when it came to the concept of equality of the people, the RCC upper hierarchy was firmly on the side of the ruling classes, a property owner in its own right, and the Papal States until Garibaldi had been a princedom of completely conventional economics, the money rising to the top.
Most people and institutions are primarily concerned with their own survival after all.
Who was it said that 'institutions only change through crisis'? The Thirty Years War was, in history, a particularly brutal, savage, vile, murderous war, endlessly exampled with hate and spite; and in the end Protestantism held the north.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Arguably, most of what the Republican party stands for is contrary to what Jesus taught. But this doesn't help Christians, most of whom are evangelicals and very fervent believers, adjust their political choices that reflect more concern for human welfare and less about money. Look at the anti-immigrant, anti-healthcare, nationalistic, and greedy attitudes rampant in conservative policies.



And humanity rose up and defeated Nazism. But it's notable that Christianity didn't give the German people enough wisdom and moral strength to say "no" to Nazism. I suspect most believers know that Christianity is full of crap, and that the whole promise of salvation is an absurd and irrational concept. I think we can blame Christianity historically for promoting these irrational ideas as literal, and not symbolic. Christianity teaches fear, and this is how many believers respond to everyday life.


According to literalist Christians all this is exactly as God created. So if God wanted some other outcome for humanity it should have created humans better.

Overpopulation of a species will result in competition over resources. And that is what war is, as Bronowski put it, highly organized theft.


Higher culture is often above what drives and motivates the average citizen. Most people operate and function with a bare minimum of knowledge and rational skill. It is no wonder that the masses can be influenced and swayed to back immoral and unethical leadership. How so many citizens backed trump (TWICE!!!) is unbelievable. And many still support him despite the revelations of his highly unethical and criminal behavior. That is why Christianity can't work.


You have some very strong, almost exclusively negative, views about Christianity which are perhaps based on your own experience of the religion and it’s adherents? We should always be wary of assuming our experience is in any way universal. The fundamentalist evangelical Christianity you seem familiar with, is rare in Europe, and almost unrecognisable to me.

That said, Europe was for centuries ravaged by wars often conducted in the name of God. There can be no doubt that many of Christ’s avowed followers, and the hierarchies that bear his name, have often fallen well short of Christian ideals and values. Does that invalidate the message, which is there in the Gospels for anyone to read? The message itself is unequivocal; it’s a message of brotherly love. Not too closely followed anywhere in the world as far as I can see, but not a reason to reject it.

The admonition to assign value not to worldly things, but to spiritual, is a little harder to swallow, especially for materialistic westerners invested heavily in the heartbreaking struggle for wealth and recognition; but this is the essence of most religious practice, not just Christianity. Matthew 6:19-21 is a tough one to swallow for many; but then, Jesus was addressing himself mostly to the poor, the low born, and the dispossessed. An easier message for those people than for the rich man, for whom Matthew 19:21 was a big ask.

Whether the religions of the world, Christianity included, have on balance caused more harm than good is a subject worthy of examination. Considered examination, not knee jerk responses based on personal experience and prejudice. Arguments and opinions either way, would be of little value if no attempt was made at impartiality; any worthwhile answers to questions such as these, must be balanced by careful consideration of all the pros and cons - there is no balance when we ask binary questions.

As for whether Christianity “works”, you’d have to define your terms. But a visit to any number of mediaeval cathedrals will tell you great works have been done in it’s name. Did the pre-Christian Roman Empire ‘work’? The Forum in Rome says it did; and St Peter’s basilica nearby, says the culture that evolved from it worked even more so.

Of course, all the temples that we build now are consecrated to mammon. The structures of glass and steel dominating modern cities are built for the purpose of worshipping money. How well is that working, do you think? And how many thousands of years do you think they will stand for?
 
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Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Well when theists use the argument from morality, one thing occurs to me every time, I do hope this person never loses their faith, if that's really their only reason to think actions like murder and rape are wrong.

If someone can condemn two consensual adults being in a loving relationship as a vile abomination, while simultaneously thinking a global genocide can be rationalised as ok, I'm not sure religious morals are all theists try to claim they are.

Give me subjective secular morality any day.
There's a bit more to it than that. Christianity has lists and pages of things you aren't supposed to be in order to be moral. They often believe themselves to be morally superior, and this does include denying many impluses, wants, desires, and other things no matter how petty that are considered sinful. They actively deny these things, thus the belief you need Jesus and the Bible to be a morally good person is logical and rationally justified to them.
They won't go murdering or raping. A friend who knew me when I was a Christian and after I left told me it was weird hearing me cuss and listening to good music.
 
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