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Why do some people

lewisnotmiller

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Aupmanyav said:
Measuring monotheistic religions against one another, IMHO, does not carry much meaning. God sent his rules/message through prophets/son/messengers/manifestations/mahdis/later-day-saints. That is the standard model. Compare it with other religions.
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I didn't limit my comments to monotheistic religions.
 
L

Lain

Well-Known Member
lewisnotmiller said:
Heh...I chuckled.
There's some truth to this in some cases, but I don't think it's often the case, to be honest. Entirely opinionative, and I might be somewhat coloured by my own thoughts. Just because I'm an atheist doesn't make me representative of atheists. But still...

Atheists are entirely not operating as 'naturalists' at all times. I know one who believes in ghosts and an afterlife (don't ask me...makes no sense in my mind).
I operate more as a 'standard' atheist, but dislike reductionism, and think that breaking things down into component parts misses the point. I love my kids...working out what chemical or neuron is firing strikes me as missing the point.

So, in the realm of love, I'm not a naturalist of the type you seem to be implying. Perhaps it's more that an absence of love appears easier to discern that an absence of God. But I think, actually, it's the specific and contradictory belief claims made about God that are the real impacting item here.

Not all claims made about God are correct. I know that to be true. So I am deciding which to believe. I'm measuring them against one another. And that is what leads me to rationalisation. Not really science, of course, but some attempt to measure these beliefs off against each other.

Again...just my opinion.
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I suppose some atheists might be preternaturalists then, for the natural order contain the things usually spoken of in the domain of natural science, then preternatural things would include souls and spirits and such, and the supernatural only that which is absolutely above nature being God.

I also like measuring different conceptions of God with one another and seeing their explanatory power, what problems they run into and if they can be resolved, and so on. It is incredibly fun to me and is one of the means by which I sort religions into "possible" or "impossible."
 
TagliatelliMonster

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Conscious thoughts said:
Why do some people think that using science to "explain" any form of theism is a right way to understand belief in a God?
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Because the act of "believing" has scientific basis in neurology, psychology, etc. Which can, and should, be studied.

In discussion of theism science are useless since science do not "know" the unseen, so they can not verify a "result" if religion or spiritual teaching is discussed it has to be done by the teaching of each spiritual teaching. Not by use of science.
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Sounds like an acknowledgement that "spiritual teachings" and "spirituality" are indistinguishable from things that don't exist.
 
L

Lain

Well-Known Member
Conscious thoughts said:
There are teaching in Sufism about it
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What are some of the teachings about it? There are opinions in Christian theology on the matter too. Perhaps a general one is summed up by St. John of Damascus:

"Now the Greeks declare that all our affairs are controlled by the rising and setting and collision of these stars, viz., the sun and moon: for it is with these matters that astrology has to do. But we hold that we get from them signs of rain and drought, cold and heat, moisture and dryness, and of the various winds, and so forth , but no sign whatever as to our actions. For we have been created with free wills by our Creator and are masters over our own actions. Indeed, if all our actions depend on the courses of the stars, all we do is done of necessity : and necessity precludes either virtue or vice. But if we possess neither virtue nor vice, we do not deserve praise or punishment, and God, too, will turn out to be unjust, since He gives good things to some and afflicts others. Nay, He will no longer continue to guide or provide for His own creatures, if all things are carried and swept along in the grip of necessity. And the faculty of reason will be superfluous to us: for if we are not masters of any of our actions, deliberation is quite superfluous. Reason, indeed, is granted to us solely that we might take counsel, and hence all reason implies freedom of will.

"And, therefore, we hold that the stars are not the causes of the things that occur, nor of the origin of things that come to pass, nor of the destruction of those things that perish. They are rather signs of showers and changes of air. But, perhaps, some one may say that though they are not the causes of wars, yet they are signs of them. And, in truth, the quality of the air which is produced by sun, and moon, and stars, produces in various ways different temperaments, and habits, and dispositions. But the habits are among the things that we have in our own hands, for it is reason that rules, and directs, and changes them."

This permits the opinion that perhaps they do influence the dispositions and temperaments, and because man often follows his passions which arise they might have some predictive power due to this, but due to free will and the intellectual soul which man has naturally it can be confounded and nothing from them is set in stone.

In my opinion at least, that is my reading.
 
Spirit of Light

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Lain said:
What are some of the teachings about it? There are opinions in Christian theology on the matter too. Perhaps a general one is summed up by St. John of Damascus:

"Now the Greeks declare that all our affairs are controlled by the rising and setting and collision of these stars, viz., the sun and moon: for it is with these matters that astrology has to do. But we hold that we get from them signs of rain and drought, cold and heat, moisture and dryness, and of the various winds, and so forth , but no sign whatever as to our actions. For we have been created with free wills by our Creator and are masters over our own actions. Indeed, if all our actions depend on the courses of the stars, all we do is done of necessity : and necessity precludes either virtue or vice. But if we possess neither virtue nor vice, we do not deserve praise or punishment, and God, too, will turn out to be unjust, since He gives good things to some and afflicts others. Nay, He will no longer continue to guide or provide for His own creatures, if all things are carried and swept along in the grip of necessity. And the faculty of reason will be superfluous to us: for if we are not masters of any of our actions, deliberation is quite superfluous. Reason, indeed, is granted to us solely that we might take counsel, and hence all reason implies freedom of will.

"And, therefore, we hold that the stars are not the causes of the things that occur, nor of the origin of things that come to pass, nor of the destruction of those things that perish. They are rather signs of showers and changes of air. But, perhaps, some one may say that though they are not the causes of wars, yet they are signs of them. And, in truth, the quality of the air which is produced by sun, and moon, and stars, produces in various ways different temperaments, and habits, and dispositions. But the habits are among the things that we have in our own hands, for it is reason that rules, and directs, and changes them."

This permits the opinion that perhaps they do influence the dispositions and temperaments, and because man often follows his passions which arise they might have some predictive power due to this, but due to free will and the intellectual soul which man has naturally it can be confounded and nothing from them is set in stone.

In my opinion at least, that is my reading.
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I have not started learning about it in debt, so I can't answer much:)
 
Aupmanyav

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Lain said:
Reason, indeed, is granted to us solely that we might take counsel, and hence all reason implies freedom of will.
"And, therefore, we hold that the stars are not the causes of the things that occur, nor of the origin of things that come to pass, nor of the destruction of those things that perish."
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IMHO, we are not making use of 'reason', if that has been granted to us. 'Reason' also means that we think by ourselves and not take what is written in a book or said by some one blindly as the truth. Substitute 'God' for 'stars', and it makes no difference. What evidence did St. John of Damascus had to hold what he said?
 
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Heyo

Heyo

Veteran Member
Conscious thoughts said:
:confused:
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People believe a lot of weird stuff with little or no evidence or against all evidence. Astrology, alien abduction, "free" energy, crystal healing, government conspiracies (OK, that one is real, but has little evidence non-the-less), flat earth and, of cause, fairies and sky fairies.

Here is Dr. Shermer explaining mechanisms of belief (without going into details of the objects of the beliefs):

 
Spirit of Light

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Heyo said:
People believe a lot of weird stuff with little or no evidence or against all evidence. Astrology, alien abduction, "free" energy, crystal healing, government conspiracies (OK, that one is real, but has little evidence non-the-less), flat earth and, of cause, fairies and sky fairies.

Here is Dr. Shermer explaining mechanisms of belief (without going into details of the objects of the beliefs):

Click to expand...
Who say they can't believe what they do? Its their beliefs
 
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