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Bigotry as practice

firedragon

Veteran Member
The question about the Kalama Sutta was in reference to rejecting the preaching of greed, hatred (bigotry in this case, specifically) and delusion.

Ah. I understand.

But dont you think its a little out of context? Especially this "bigotry" thing. The text says "Dhvesha or Dosa" which means anger. A kind of a hateful anger. Its not really bigotry.

Also, this is about a self hurt. He asks "if this is for the good, or the bad of the person", then the Kalam's respond saying "for the worse".
 
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crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
Ah. I understand.

But dont you think its a little out of context? Especially this "bigotry" thing. The text says "Dhvesha or Dosa" which means anger. A kind of a hateful anger. Its not really bigotry.

Also, this is about a self hurt. He asks "if this is for the good, or the bad of the person", then the Kalam's respond saying "for the worse".
Doesn't verse 3 sound like bigotry to you?
Kalama Sutta: The Instruction to the Kalamas
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
1. Some Muslims have this idea that all who dont believe in the prophet Muhammed are lacking morals. This seems like an arbitrary idea, and I am yet to see some scholarly exegesis of what ever Islamic text that states this as such.
It is a clear and integral part of Islamic ideology. Morality comes from Allah, through Muhammad.
Now, this does not necessarily mean that a person who does not follow Islam has no morals (an atheist can be teetotal, abstain from extra-marital sex, etc), but it is claimed by apologists that they have no basis for their morals, and it is certainly the case that those who reject Islamic morality are seen to be lacking in morals.

I would say even if some text say this directly, it is bigotry and should be avoided because its just nonsense. The same sentiment goes to some Christians. But it could be that Muslims and Christians are so vast in numbers that I encounter them more.
The Abrahamic religions are, by definition, bigoted. They are prejudiced against those who do not share their opinions.

2. Some Atheists think that all theists are just stupid. They think all theists are just uneducated,
This is just a feeble straw man. I'm not sure that you could find many, if any, atheists who think this.

I have noticed in this very forum. Sometimes when you present some kind of research, they find the researcher was Christian, the atheist had this idea that since he is Christian its invalid. But hey, they took Newton and Algebra. I think that's hypocritical really.
Can you give some examples of atheists rejecting valid research simply because the author was religious?

Its better to put it bluntly. This is bigotry. Unresearched, yes. But what ever the background is, or the level of research finding, it is in my opinion, just bigotry because I personally believe that this kind of thinking is not based on research. Its just an indoctrination of some kind.
What do you think?
Ironically, your argument is displaying the kind of poor and prejudiced thinking that you are complaining about.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
But I see their oppressive unjust nature now and it happens when you put low desires first and ignore guidance of God, it's bound to happen they become oppressive in nature towards oppressed and believers who defend the oppressed.
That sounds pretty prejudiced and intolerant of others' beliefs.
Hmm, I'm sure there's a word for that...
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Doesn't verse 3 sound like bigotry to you?
Kalama Sutta: The Instruction to the Kalamas

I already explained CF. It says "Dhosena". Which means "Out of hatred/anger". If you want I will give the direct text. You can check it if you wish. The word is circled for your easy reference.
Screenshot 2021-11-21 at 15.52.29.png
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
One thing I find confusing is the Qu'ran seems to present it as a) a person believes in Allah b) a person doesn't believe at all and is an atheist, and presents no other way. What about those who believe in other Gods?
The Quran's approach towards other religions is both varied and inconsistent.
"Idolators" (originally referring to Arab paganism) are well and truly ****ed.
"People of the Book" (Christians and Jews) are sometimes ok but other times criticised or condemned. It seems to depend on when the passage was written. The earlier stuff is more conciliatory and accommodating but as Muhammad gained more military and political power, the passages become more belligerent and supremacist.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
I'm saying in general when you follow your low desires and don't strive to come to God's guidance:
1) Apathy to injustice is natural in this state because you don't care to know God's guidance for real and join and help God's cause in alleviating injustice. You don't want to oppose oppressors and work for justice, but just live your happy life.
Ironic, given that Islam's condemnation of innocent people to an eternity of horrendous torture is the definition of "injustice"

2) You likely to support oppressors and their propaganda without doing proper research, you believe in the deceivers after all you don't care to come to God's chosen guides and guidance, you want to live a life of ease.
Who are these "oppressors" and what does their "propaganda" say?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Ironic, given that Islam's condemnation of innocent people to an eternity of horrendous torture is the definition of "injustice"

Who are these "oppressors" and what does their "propaganda" say?

The people who oppose Hezbollah for example are scum that deserve hell forever. Even being apathetic and neutral and not supporting the best people on earth, to me, people deserve to go hell forever for that.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think if you're concerned of the fewness of your numbers, you're in luck.

Why Muslims are the world’s fastest-growing religious group

When I was growing up, I was sent off to church. In our 'Sunday schools', we were told we were few in number, and there was a whole world out there waiting to oppress us.

When I became a young woman, I turned from Christianity. Then I learned about oppression a bit more. This time, I really was being discriminated against. Interestingly, it was those who claimed they were being oppressed that were doing the oppression...

I'm not saying this is your case. Its just good to keep one's eyes and ears open to oppression of all groups at all times, and to have a good awareness of one's own situation in the world.

Majority of Muslims don't support the truth nor stand against oppressors nor support the proper people and are enemies of believers as well. It's the sad reality. The number of people of truth and their fewness is a reality.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Are you trying to show an example of bigotry, rather than responding to the OP?

I'm saying I'm a bigot per his definition but not backing out of it. It's the right stance to take whether others condemn it by a word or not.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So dispute the definition. Show me how you define bigotry. Go ahead.

I don't dispute the definition. I'm saying by definition of it but for example if you are anti-homosexual which Islam is by definition, that's bigotry.

Definition is fluid and decided in real time, so if people decide I'm a bigot so be it. I won't stop condemning oppressors, their supporters, and the apathetic that watch by, and truly the only way to serve justice is to come to the Messengers as that is one of the reasons they were sent, so people rise by justice per Quran (see Surah Hadid for example).

I don't believe if you turn away from God's guidance you will be able to take the proper stance and be just except for a few exceptions out there.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Ill tell you what. As usual this thread is also gonna be dragged into bullying religions while calling them bullying you. So why not open a new thread to do that?
The thread is about ideological bigotry. Some religions are ideologically bigoted. Deal with it.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The thread is about ideological bigotry. Some religions are ideologically bigoted. Deal with it.

I actually agree with you, per the official definition, Islam is a bigoted religion. Now he might care about that, I don't.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
The people who oppose Hezbollah for example are scum that deserve hell forever. Even being apathetic and neutral and not supporting the best people on earth, to me, people deserve to go hell forever for that.
Do you support everything Hezbollah says and does?
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Im gonna ask you an irrelevant question. Sorry, cant help it. You can sew me later. No no wait. Its sue me, not sew me.

What do you mean by Taoist Christian? When you have time.
I am philosophically aligned with the ideals of both Taoism and Christianity. Taoism in terms of honesty, humility, and spontaneity, and Christianity in terms of cooperation for the benefit of all, as opposed to competition for the benefit of ourselves.
 
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