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Bigotry as practice

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
It's My Birthday!
1. Some Muslims have this idea that all who dont believe in the prophet Muhammed are lacking morals. This seems like an arbitrary idea, and I am yet to see some scholarly exegesis of what ever Islamic text that states this as such. I would say even if some text say this directly, it is bigotry and should be avoided because its just nonsense. The same sentiment goes to some Christians. But it could be that Muslims and Christians are so vast in numbers that I encounter them more.
Yes, there is bigotry of this type. As far as I know there is no text in the Qur'an that non-Muslims lack morals. Christians don't have such a text, either, in the New Testament. It may be that in the Old Testament there are such indications, but those texts are suspect to me.
2. Some Atheists think that all theists are just stupid. They think all theists are just uneducated, and in fact, about a decade ago I did notice that there was a uprising in atheistic polemics that all theists are just uneducated. And I have known some ex Christians who became Muslims who have told me that once they became Muslims they noticed that the atheistic idea that all theists are just plain stupid and uneducated increased. But this is not based on a worldwide study of course. I have noticed in this very forum. Sometimes when you present some kind of research, they find the researcher was Christian, the atheist had this idea that since he is Christian its invalid. But hey, they took Newton and Algebra. I think that's hypocritical really.
I don't know about stupid, but to them all theists are uncritical thinkers. Only an atheist is a critical thinker. This is also a type of bigotry.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
It's My Birthday!
Yes, its bigotry.

Normally, I'd say exposure is key. Being exposed to people you disagree with on a personal level often helps these things disappear. But it has to be personal. Simply rubbing elbows won't do.

By seeing the 'enemy' is just as moral/human/intelligent as you, and possibly even turning them into a 'friend', is the only way many ever drop such discriminatory ideas.
Wonderful! The same principle could be applied to conservative/liberal or Republican/Democrat. This is even a bigger problem now in the US, in my opinion.
 

JustGeorge

Not As Much Fun As I Look
Staff member
Premium Member
Wonderful! The same principle could be applied to conservative/liberal or Republican/Democrat. This is even a bigger problem now in the US, in my opinion.

I remember watching the news at the beginning of Trump's term about two senators(on opposite ends of the political spectrum) having to carpool together... and bonding quickly... over doughnuts. They said once they realized they both shared a deep love of doughnuts, they realized they probably had more in common than not. They took a few videos of themselves on the road to prove that Democrats and Republicans can be friends.

I think cliquishness in general is a huge problem in the US. People must look the same/act the same/have the same amount of money/have the same beliefs(or lack of) to interact anymore...
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
It's My Birthday!
I remember watching the news at the beginning of Trump's term about two senators(on opposite ends of the political spectrum) having to carpool together... and bonding quickly... over doughnuts. They said once they realized they both shared a deep love of doughnuts, they realized they probably had more in common than not. They took a few videos of themselves on the road to prove that Democrats and Republicans can be friends.

I think cliquishness in general is a huge problem in the US. People must look the same/act the same/have the same amount of money/have the same beliefs(or lack of) to interact anymore...
Scalia and Ginsburg were personal friends. I didn't know this when they were both alive.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
She thought me a satanist cuz I was a pagan not cuz I was a satanist. At the time I wasn't anything close nor was I a luciferian. And thought me immoral. No matter what I said I couldn't change her mind.

I dont wish to be disrespectful ROL but that's bigotry.
 
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firedragon

Veteran Member
Based on that personal experience I think a main cause of bigotry in the world is a lack of familiarity with how other humans experience life and the commonalities between them all.

I think you are absolutely spot on. You are not justifying bigotry, but giving a reason or cause. There was research done on animosity some time ago and the findings were pretty much supporting what you say. Association decreases bigotry. If I find this research I will give you some kind of data on it and source.

In my opinion, you are spot on.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Wait do you mean what I said is bigotry or how she acted was?

I dont mean to offend anyone. What you said was not bigotry, but as I understood she had a particular prototype of Pagans and she treated you that way by default because of who you were.

That is the definition of bigotry.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
This is a good lession for @firedragon. He wants to define it in a way that doesn't include believing x group is deserving of hell in general because Quran contradicts that. So he says that is not bigotry. But semantics is not set in stone, and people dispute definitions.

There are groups in Europe who believe Quran should be banned because by their definition, it is hate speech, and hate speech should be banned in "free societies" per them.

So dispute the definition. Show me how you define bigotry. Go ahead.
 

VoidCat

Pronouns: he/him/they/them
I dont mean to offend anyone. What you said was not bigotry, but as I understood she had a particular prototype of Pagans and she treated you that way by default because of who you were.

That is the definition of bigotry.
I agree. She even called the pastor talking about how I was possessed. But anyway...

Views like that regarding paganism I've found were common. At least where I used to live. Just mention pagan witch youd get flack and in massive trouble with folk. Usually Christians since it was in the bible belt.
This is what I thought of when I read your post.
And I think media and lack of common info on paganism play a role on folks equating pagans with demon worship.
I dont know if any of this is helpful. You asked for what I think. Im inclined to agree with you on both points.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
2. Some Atheists think that all theists are just stupid. They think all theists are just uneducated, and in fact, about a decade ago I did notice that there was a uprising in atheistic polemics that all theists are just uneducated.
What you might be observing is the correlation of poor education to belief in irrational concepts.

Religion is a bit different in that religion tends to be ingrained in cultural frameworks, so are adopted as part as social experience. It's a non-rational process.
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
@firedragon

Why do you think that the belief that those who don't believe as they do will be tortured horribly for all eternity by a vengeful god isn't a bigoted view of unbelievers? Can you elaborate your argument?

Hell, by the strict definition of the term presented in post number 10, any devoutly religious person with great religious conviction is a bigot since one could easily make the argument that this is attachment to a belief that far exceeds reason. Though that would be a bigot more in the sense of a close minded person or a zealot more than in the sense of a strongly prejudiced person for which the word bigot is more often used these days.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
Ive been thinking about this topic for about a decade and have been finding bigotry not only prevailing but increasing. Ill give some examples. Mind you, you may consider this anecdotal, no problem.

1. Some Muslims have this idea that all who dont believe in the prophet Muhammed are lacking morals. This seems like an arbitrary idea, and I am yet to see some scholarly exegesis of what ever Islamic text that states this as such. I would say even if some text say this directly, it is bigotry and should be avoided because its just nonsense. The same sentiment goes to some Christians. But it could be that Muslims and Christians are so vast in numbers that I encounter them more.

2. Some Atheists think that all theists are just stupid. They think all theists are just uneducated, and in fact, about a decade ago I did notice that there was a uprising in atheistic polemics that all theists are just uneducated. And I have known some ex Christians who became Muslims who have told me that once they became Muslims they noticed that the atheistic idea that all theists are just plain stupid and uneducated increased. But this is not based on a worldwide study of course. I have noticed in this very forum. Sometimes when you present some kind of research, they find the researcher was Christian, the atheist had this idea that since he is Christian its invalid. But hey, they took Newton and Algebra. I think that's hypocritical really.

Its better to put it bluntly. This is bigotry. Unresearched, yes. But what ever the background is, or the level of research finding, it is in my opinion, just bigotry because I personally believe that this kind of thinking is not based on research. Its just an indoctrination of some kind.

What do you think?
Have you been reading the Kalama sutta? ;)
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
@firedragon

Why do you think that the belief that those who don't believe as they do will be tortured horribly for all eternity by a vengeful god isn't a bigoted view of unbelievers? Can you elaborate your argument?

Hell, by the strict definition of the term presented in post number 10, any devoutly religious person with great religious conviction is a bigot since one could easily make the argument that this is attachment to a belief that far exceeds reason. Though that would be a bigot more in the sense of a close minded person or a zealot more than in the sense of a strongly prejudiced person for which the word bigot is more often used these days.

Well. This is my opinion.

Some religious people may believe that people who dont adhere to their particular religious view will end up in hell. That is because they believe their salvation itself depends on believing in their view. This is an after life matter. Atheists believe that there there is no hell or heaven and all of that is nonsense. So anyone who believes they will go to heaven or hell are just wrong. Do you also consider that bigotry?

Some theists will believe that all sinners will end up in hell. Is that bigotry? After all, if one intends to, he can define "sinners" as one group and this as simple bigotry. This can go on to murderers. If one believes all murderers will go to hell, that can be considered bigotry?

If you take that route, you can keep going for ever. you can even call governments bigots for immigration issues, jails, etc etc.

I dont agree with this religious view of human salvation being only for one group of people and the rest are damned to hell for having a different belief. But I do not consider that bigotry.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Have you been reading the Kalama sutta? ;)

Kalama Sutta I read I think when I was in school. 3rd grade maybe. :)

Anyway, this is actually not a paramparagatha matter. In fact, I am not going against what I inherited via tradition or through generations, I am in fact confirming what I received through generations.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
God loves those with practice justice (yuhubal muqsiteen) and hates disbelievers and does not love them per Quran.

I left Islam for 5 years because I couldn't grasp disbelievers going to hell. But I see their oppressive unjust nature now and it happens when you put low desires first and ignore guidance of God, it's bound to happen they become oppressive in nature towards oppressed and believers who defend the oppressed.

Are you trying to show an example of bigotry, rather than responding to the OP?
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
3. Some Christians have this idea that anyone who doesn't believe what they believe will be tortured for eternity.

It's not 'some Christians' but ALL Christians SHOULD believe that because
it's in the bible. Same for Jews. The real issue really concerns whether the
bible itself is accurate.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
Kalama Sutta I read I think when I was in school. 3rd grade maybe. :)

Anyway, this is actually not a paramparagatha matter. In fact, I am not going against what I inherited via tradition or through generations, I am in fact confirming what I received through generations.
The question about the Kalama Sutta was in reference to rejecting the preaching of greed, hatred (bigotry in this case, specifically) and delusion.
 
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