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Mitzvah

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Forgive my ignorance but out of curiosity...

The Jewish religion has the Mitzvah, the commandments given by God. Is the covenant to obey each commandment and if in failing to follow the commandment, to pay a sin sacrifice as recompense?

Is following the Mitzvah the only thing that is required by God per the covenant?

With Christianity, there is a concept of evil, temptation, Satan, the corrupted nature of man. We have Satan going about putting bad thoughts in your head to do bad things. Is there anything like this in Judaism? Any correlation to these Christian concepts.

Maybe Christianity and Judaism have more in common than I think but often I find, rightly or wrongly they actually have very little in common. Other than the New Testament where in Matthew where a lot of effort is made to make this connection between Judaism and Christianity I'd think they were totally different religions.

It was implied that Judaism was Christianity without Jesus as the Messiah when I was growing up a Christian. So it comes as a surprise as I start to see how dissimilar they are.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
The Jewish religion has the Mitzvah, the commandments given by God. Is the covenant to obey each commandment and if in failing to follow the commandment, to pay a sin sacrifice as recompense?
The sacrifices are only for unintentional sins. Many sins are atoned for through repentance (repenting to whomever you hurt and repenting to G-d). I'm on my phone and can't be bothered to type more lol. You can't just murder someone and be all 'Here's a sacrifice, now we're cool.'

Satan tries tripping folks up, but only on G-d's orders. To some, he's only an anthropomorphism of one's yetzer hara- the evil inclination.

Following the mitzvot makes up most of Judaism, and is the bedrock, but things like emunah (faith) and belief in certain things, i.e Torah given at Sinai; the coming of mashiach etc. are also necessary in Orthodoxy.
 
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Lain

Well-Known Member
Maybe Christianity and Judaism have more in common than I think but often I find, rightly or wrongly they actually have very little in common. Other than the New Testament where in Matthew where a lot of effort is made to make this connection between Judaism and Christianity I'd think they were totally different religions.

It was implied that Judaism was Christianity without Jesus as the Messiah when I was growing up a Christian. So it comes as a surprise as I start to see how dissimilar they are.

From my perspective for having talked to them what you find is accurate. It's nearly true to say that there is no commonality. I also would not say St. Matthew thought of there being much commonality either, and I do not think he tried to make a connection. The implication you got growing up comes from two entirely differing ideas of history really. They do not have it. Like an asymptote never the twain shall meet. All in my opinion of course.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Forgive my ignorance but out of curiosity...

The Jewish religion has the Mitzvah, the commandments given by God. Is the covenant to obey each commandment and if in failing to follow the commandment, to pay a sin sacrifice as recompense?

Is following the Mitzvah the only thing that is required by God per the covenant?

With Christianity, there is a concept of evil, temptation, Satan, the corrupted nature of man. We have Satan going about putting bad thoughts in your head to do bad things. Is there anything like this in Judaism? Any correlation to these Christian concepts.

Maybe Christianity and Judaism have more in common than I think but often I find, rightly or wrongly they actually have very little in common. Other than the New Testament where in Matthew where a lot of effort is made to make this connection between Judaism and Christianity I'd think they were totally different religions.

It was implied that Judaism was Christianity without Jesus as the Messiah when I was growing up a Christian. So it comes as a surprise as I start to see how dissimilar they are.
Of course, there will position all over the spectrum on this one.

But, does Satan go around putting bad thoughts and temptation?
Possibility: 1st Chronicle 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Or even the Serpent in the Garden?
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I've read that mitzvoh can be following the Torah with joy or doing good deeds with joy. Maybe @RabbiO can speak to this question.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
The term mitzvah, strictly speaking, refers to a specific body of particular commanded practices, some positive (do this) and some negative (don't do that). 613 are enumerated in the written biblical text, according to tradition. There are a few different lists of those 613 and they don't all agree.

There are also a large number of rabbinical commandments, derived extensions, decrees and enactments which are given some measure of importance (more or less).

The word, though, has become more generalized to "good deed" but that might be because of things like a catchall "love your neighbor as yourself" or "love the stranger" so anything one does to connect to others gets thrown into that vague "good deed" title.

Because Jewish law is a comprehensive set of legal requirements controlling most every aspect of life and not just ritual moments, Judaism is less a religion and more a comprehensive social construct which makes it categorically different from anything which stops at the edges of theological awareness.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...
Maybe Christianity and Judaism have more in common than I think but often I find, rightly or wrongly they actually have very little in common. Other than the New Testament where in Matthew where a lot of effort is made to make this connection between Judaism and Christianity I'd think they were totally different religions...

I think they are very same, because the OT tells about coming New Covenant, which I think is set by Jesus, and they have basically the same law. In OT it is said that in the New Covenant the law is written into persons heart. It means there happens change in person so that he becomes righteous (is born anew), he will know what is good and wants to do that. And when that happens, I count the person a Jew. I believe so because of the following scriptures.

Yahweh your God will circumcise your heart, and the heart of your seed, to love Yahweh your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, that you may live. Yahweh your God will put all these curses on your enemies, and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. You shall return and obey the voice of Yahweh, and do all his commandments which I command you this day. Yahweh your God will make you plenteous in all the work of your hand, in the fruit of your body, and in the fruit of your cattle, and in the fruit of your ground, for good: for Yahweh will again rejoice over you for good, as he rejoiced over your fathers;
Deuteronomy 30:6-9

For finding fault with them, he said, "Behold, the days come," says the Lord, "That I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, In the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; For they didn't continue in my covenant, And I disregarded them," says the Lord. "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days," says the Lord; "I will put my laws into their mind, I will also write them on their heart. I will be to them a God, And they will be to me a people. They will not teach every man his fellow citizen, Every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' For all will know me, From the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness. I will remember their sins and lawless deeds no more."
Hebrews 8:8-12 (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

He took the cup, gave thanks, and gave to them, saying, "All of you drink it, for this is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many for the remission of sins.
Matthew 26:27-28

"Most assuredly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can't enter into the Kingdom of God! That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Don't marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born anew.'
John 3:3-7

But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God's children, to those who believe in his name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13

It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63

Such confidence we have through Christ toward God; not that we are sufficient of ourselves, to account anything as from ourselves; but our sufficiency is from God; who also made us sufficient as servants of a new covenant; not of the letter, but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2 Corinthians 3:4-6

For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not from men, but from God.
Romans 2:28-29

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
It was implied that Judaism was Christianity without Jesus as the Messiah when I was growing up a Christian. So it comes as a surprise as I start to see how dissimilar they are.
This is quite untrue. Judaism is nothing like Christianity, with or without the messiah. I'm so glad that you are actually asking questions instead of assuming you know Judaism from knowing Christianity. Thank you.

Christianity revolves around Jesus as the messiah dying for your sins, and by your belief you avoid hell and get to go to heaven. I realize I'm simplifying, but that's the core, in one sentence.

In Judaism, the messiah is not central at all. For many religious Jews, the messiah is rather irrelevant. The core is obeying God, not because you are trying to do so in exchange for salvation, but simply because he is God and deserving of our love, our worship, and our obedience.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Of course, there will position all over the spectrum on this one.

But, does Satan go around putting bad thoughts and temptation?
Possibility: 1st Chronicle 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Or even the Serpent in the Garden?
Jews do not believe that the Serpent was Satan.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
In Jewish thought there are always various positions on what was written:

"Satin is able to counterfeit anything and I agree with many of the ancient sages that the serpent could well have been Satan’s attempt to mimic God by creating life....... counterfeit life.

https://torahclass.com/old-testamen...esson-4-genesis-3-4?tmpl=component&format=pdf
Okay, I only skimmed this, but the document's name has "old testament" in it. No self-respecting Jew would refer that way to the Tanach. Moreover, zero sources, from what I can tell.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Okay, I only skimmed this, but the document's name has "old testament" in it. No self-respecting Jew would refer that way to the Tanach. Moreover, zero sources, from what I can tell.
The evolution of the theory of Satan keeps pace with the development of Jewish angelology and demonology. In Wisdom ii. 24 he is represented, with reference to Gen. iii., as the author of all evil, who brought death into the world; he is apparently mentioned also in Ecclus. (Sirach) xxi. 27, and the fact that his name does not occur in Daniel is doubtless due merely to chance. Satan was the seducer and the paramour of Eve, and was hurled from heaven together with other angels because of his iniquity (Slavonic Book of Enoch, xxix. 4 et seq.).

SATAN - JewishEncyclopedia.com
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
In Jewish thought there are always various positions on what was written:

"Satin is able to counterfeit anything and I agree with many of the ancient sages that the serpent could well have been Satan’s attempt to mimic God by creating life....... counterfeit life.

https://torahclass.com/old-testamen...esson-4-genesis-3-4?tmpl=component&format=pdf
Tom Bradford is a Christian. He teaches "Jewish studies" at a church. I realize the website has a very Jewish feel to it, but it is a Christian website. The webstie says, "What is Torah Class? Torah Class is a free online Bible Study website for gentile and Jewish Believers in Jesus Christ, Yeshua HaMashiach."
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Wisdom ii. 24
This is not canon to Judaism, so I don't get why you would use this as evidence. In fact, not only is it not canon, it's not even counted towards anything, in religious terms.
he is apparently mentioned also in Ecclus. (Sirach) xxi. 27
Apparently doesn't mean much. Now, I don't know what chapter and verse order is used here, but from what I found, Satan is not mentioned anywhere in chapter 11 of Ben Sira.
and the fact that his name does not occur in Daniel is doubtless due merely to chance.
Or...not. One should be careful about making assumptions about things not said.
Satan was the seducer and the paramour of Eve, and was hurled from heaven together with other angels because of his iniquity (Slavonic Book of Enoch, xxix. 4 et seq.).
Once again, a text that is irrelevant to modern Jews. And when I say modern Jews, I refer to the spiritual descendants of the majority of the Jews during the Second Temple era, those that followed the sages. The vast majority of Jews today - whether religious or not - are spiritual descendants of these people. One would assume they had good reasons to reject these various texts.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
This is not canon to Judaism, so I don't get why you would use this as evidence. In fact, not only is it not canon, it's not even counted towards anything, in religious terms.

Once again, a text that is irrelevant to modern Jews. And when I say modern Jews, I refer to the spiritual descendants of the majority of the Jews during the Second Temple era, those that followed the sages. The vast majority of Jews today - whether religious or not - are spiritual descendants of these people. One would assume they had good reasons to reject these various texts.


It was just a point of "different thoughts" by other Jews as mentioned in the Jewish encyclopedia

I understand it isn't cannon for Gen 3, however, it wasn't Gen 3 that I referenced but rather something you brought up so the "relevancy" has to do with Chronicles and not Genesis.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
It was just a point of "different thoughts" by other Jews as mentioned in the Jewish encyclopedia
Well, we know that different thoughts by other Jews lead to whole new religions. That isn't evidence that mainstream Judaism accepts their views.

It was my impression that you were trying to prove your views on Satan based on Jewish sources, but really there's good reason that so far the only sources you've found are a missionary website and heterodox Jewish texts that have long since been rejected by the vast majority of Jews.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Well, we know that different thoughts by other Jews lead to whole new religions. That isn't evidence that mainstream Judaism accepts their views.

It was my impression that you were trying to prove your views on Satan based on Jewish sources, but really there's good reason that so far the only sources you've found are a missionary website and heterodox Jewish texts that have long since been rejected by the vast majority of Jews.

Not really:

1 Chronicles 21:1
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

Psalm 109:6
Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.

Zechariah 3:1
And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

I think these sources are pretty reliable.

It is true that "Satan" as the one manifesting as "The Serpent" would be purely a theological point of view--but it doesn't detract from the fact that Jewish thought did include a "Satan".



Screen Shot 2021-11-30 at 7.05.57 AM.png
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Not really:

1 Chronicles 21:1
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

Psalm 109:6
Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.

Zechariah 3:1
And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

I think these sources are pretty reliable.

It is true that "Satan" as the one manifesting as "The Serpent" would be purely a theological point of view--but it doesn't detract from the fact that Jewish thought did include a "Satan".
I never said there's no such thing as "satan" in Judaism. That would be preposterous, at the very least for the verses you brought. I am talking about your claim that Satan in Judaism is some kind of fallen angel rebelling against God. As explained above, this is pretty much baseless.
I would just like to note about this image that whoever made this misspelled Satan. Rather than spelling it שטן, they spelled it שתן which actually means urine.
 
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