Near Death experiences and the scientific method.

[KWED]

It is not possible to unrealize what has been realized, it like asking someone who speaks English fluently to unlearn it.

So why does this not apply to me and spiritual knowledge?

This is a common trait with religionists. They seem unaware that the arguments they use to dismiss other positions apply equally to their own.

 

[KWED]

But I don't deal in assumptions, I am not assuming spiritual knowledge, it exists.

Oh dear.
Just because you believe something exists, doesn't mean it actually exists.
We have been through this before. Basically your argument means that every genuinely held belief is necessarily true.
I genuinely belief that spiritual knowledge does not exist. Therefore it does not exist. QED.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

There is no evidence that the historical character of Jesus had any miraculous powers, was resurrected, etc. "Magic Jesus" exists only in the belief of Christians.
We have already detected enough planets that have the potential to sustain life in the tiny fraction of the universe that we can observe closely enough, to make the existence of extraterrestrial life an almost certainty.

Of course there is life everywhere, the universe is alive, what has that got to do with Jesus or anything else?

Christianity is not the only religion, they are all true in their essential message of there being a higher source to our mortal existence.

 

[KWED]

Awareness is not imagination, where did you get that idea?

Imagination is part of awareness. Hoe could you not realise that?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Of course you do. Everything you have argued on here is based entirely on belief. You have presented zero verifiable evidence for any of your claims.

That is your belief, reality can only be realized by spiritual understanding.

 

[KWED]

If you have actually had a certain experience, belief that you had it is not necessary, you just say you experienced it. The meaning of the concept 'belief' has nothing to do with the meaning of the concept 'experience', they are not the same.

The issue is whether that "experience" was real or imagined.
When people hallucinate they see things that are not actually there. When people are deluded they believe things that are not true. But they are absolutely convinced that they are real and actually happening.
Why do you think that your experience is not like these, and what actual evidence or rational argument do you have to support that claim?
So far you have only provided "I believe it is real, so it is real".

 

[Ben Dhyan]

So why does this not apply to me and spiritual knowledge?

This is a common trait with religionists. They seem unaware that the arguments they use to dismiss other positions apply equally to their own.

If you have never realized spiritual understanding, there can be no unrealizing of something that does not exist.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Oh dear.
Just because you believe something exists, doesn't mean it actually exists.
We have been through this before. Basically your argument means that every genuinely held belief is necessarily true.
I genuinely belief that spiritual knowledge does not exist. Therefore it does not exist. QED.

I don't deal in beliefs, how many times must you be told.

 

[KWED]

Also the meaning of the concept 'belief' is not the same as the meaning of the concept 'knowledge'. Sheeesh!

Exactly!
You are conflating the two by claiming that your "belief" is "knowledge".
Simply claiming that you "know" your belief is true doesn't make it true.
People experiencing hallucinations and delusions can "know" what they are experiencing is "true", just as you do. Are you really claiming that their hallucinations and delusions are therefore real?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Imagination is part of awareness. Hoe could you not realise that?

Are you serious? Smelling, seeing, hearing, feeling, etc., etc., are all aspects of awareness, but awareness is not limited to any particular aspect of awareness. The reality represented by the concept of 'awareness' is not the reality represented by the concept of imagination, smelling, hearing, seeing, etc. etc,

 

[KWED]

So why are they not considered agnostic?

Because agnosticism is a measure of certainty, not belief. You can have gnostic and agnostic atheists.

But in any event, I like to hear from the horses mouth, not some statistical impersonal source,

Oh, this is brilliant!
You: "Show me x"
Me: *presents multiple examples of x"
You: "I'm not interested in evidence!"

you are an atheist and it follows logically that you do not accept spiritual knowledge, yes?

**** me, it's like a foreign language.
It does not "logically follow" because not all atheists reject the concept of spirituality.

As I said already, you are committing the fallacy of composition by assuming that because something applies to a part, it therefore applies to the whole.
Just because some swans are white doesn't mean that all swans are therefore white.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

The issue is whether that "experience" was real or imagined.
When people hallucinate they see things that are not actually there. When people are deluded they believe things that are not true. But they are absolutely convinced that they are real and actually happening.
Why do you think that your experience is not like these, and what actual evidence or rational argument do you have to support that claim?
So far you have only provided "I believe it is real, so it is real".

I don't do belief, why are you so fixated on the idea that belief is somehow important when it comes to trying to understand reality?

 

[KWED]

Of course there is life everywhere, the universe is alive, what has that got to do with Jesus or anything else?

You asked if aliens existing was as likely as Jesus existing.
I explained that aliens are far more likely than Magic Jesus.

Christianity is not the only religion, they are all true in their essential message of there being a higher source to our mortal existence.

That argument essentially refutes Christianity.

 

[KWED]

That is your belief, reality can only be realized by spiritual understanding.

This is just babble.
A belief is a claim that is not supported by evidence. You have no evidence to support your claim, only your own belief that it is true, which rests on nothing n=more than your belief that it is true. Classic circular logic.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Exactly!
You are conflating the two by claiming that your "belief" is "knowledge".
Simply claiming that you "know" your belief is true doesn't make it true.
People experiencing hallucinations and delusions can "know" what they are experiencing is "true", just as you do. Are you really claiming that their hallucinations and delusions are therefore real?

Now you are being silly, if I say I have a certain spiritual knowledge, I mean it, I do not mean I believe I have spiritual knowledge. You countering by saying I believe is not going anywhere. Try and discover what knowledge I am referring to, etc. etc.

 

[KWED]

If you have never realized spiritual understanding, there can be no unrealizing of something that does not exist.

You claimed that you can't even try to accept atheism because it is not true.
Why does this not apply to me not finding spiritual knowledge? You keep telling me that if I look "properly" I will find it. Well, I make the same claim about atheism. So, will you "look properly"?
You seem to by making the "special pleading" fallacy here.

 

[KWED]

I don't deal in beliefs, how many times must you be told.

But everything you say shows clearly that your position is entirely based on belief.
Yes, I understand that you think that it isn't, but then, all delusional people think their delusion is real. Why are you any different?
"But I know it is real!"
And they all say the same thing.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Because agnosticism is a measure of certainty, not belief. You can have gnostic and agnostic atheists.

Oh, this is brilliant!
You: "Show me x"
Me: *presents multiple examples of x"
You: "I'm not interested in evidence!"

**** me, it's like a foreign language.
It does not "logically follow" because not all atheists reject the concept of spirituality.

As I said already, you are committing the fallacy of composition by assuming that because something applies to a part, it therefore applies to the whole.
Just because some swans are white doesn't mean that all swans are therefore white.

So put your money where your mouth is, find an atheist on this forum who is prepared to argue that they believe in spiritual knowledge. Have them make there claim here on this thread!

 

[Ben Dhyan]

You asked if aliens existing was as likely as Jesus existing.
I explained that aliens are far more likely than Magic Jesus.

That argument essentially refutes Christianity.

What argument, what refutes Christianity?

 

[KWED]

Are you serious? Smelling, seeing, hearing, feeling, etc., etc., are all aspects of awareness, but awareness is not limited to any particular aspect of awareness. The reality represented by the concept of 'awareness' is not the reality represented by the concept of imagination, smelling, hearing, seeing, etc. etc,

No idea what you are on about here.
Are you really claiming that our imagination isn't part of what we are aware of?