Atheism is not a belief, so why would anyone lie that it is?

[PoetPhilosopher]

Atheism is defined as a lack of belief in God or gods. Hence, by definition, atheism is not a belief. I'm curious to know who among us can't just simply comprehend the dictionary's definition of atheism?

I've wrapped my head around what's being discussed a few posts back. My only further statements are that I see atheists using the definition of atheism as a defense sometimes in debates, and it looks bad if they themselves use that definition after saying things like "There is no God.", to excuse having a burden of proof to such positive statements. The problem with them further citing the definition, is statements like "There is no God." kind of go against the definition of atheism, in my opinion. Better to say "I lack belief in God."

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What are we counting as a dictionary? One might go to dictionary.com and find "the doctrine or belief that there is no God," which is it's first definition, or maybe the second one it has "disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings." I guess one might answer "yes" or "no" based on which one they chose, but which one should be chosen or is correct is another discussion.

One might go to the online Cambridge dictionary if one likes that university prestige on their sources, and find their only definition which says "the belief that God does not exist."

I personally would count something like the SEP or IEP, although they are explicitly encyclopedias, to be useful for being a dictionary on positions, and they both give a multitude of definitions including but not limited to: "It has come to be widely accepted that to be an atheist is to affirm the non-existence of God. Anthony Flew (1984) called this positive atheism, whereas to lack a belief that God or gods exist is to be a negative atheist. Parallels for this use of the term would be terms such as “amoral,” “atypical,” or “asymmetrical.” So negative atheism would includes someone who has never reflected on the question of whether or not God exists and has no opinion about the matter and someone who had thought about the matter a great deal and has concluded either that she has insufficient evidence to decide the question, or that the question cannot be resolved in principle." There is also "If, however, “atheism” is defined in terms of theism and theism is the proposition that God exists and not the psychological condition of believing that there is a God, then it follows that atheism is not the absence of the psychological condition of believing that God exists (more on this below). The “a-” in “atheism” must be understood as negation instead of absence, as “not” instead of “without”. Therefore, in philosophy at least, atheism should be construed as the proposition that God does not exist (or, more broadly, the proposition that there are no gods)."

Take your pick man. With the IEP/SEP quotes I bolded the parts I consider definitional there.

And if you prefer physical book dictionaries I don't own any, I'm totally digital in this, sorry about that.

There are two aspects of how we use the word "atheist" that I find useful when considering proposed definitions for the word:

1. Theists aren't atheists. Anyone who believes in any sort of god is not an atheist.

2. Atheists exist. They aren't some hypothetical thing that people speculate might exist; they really do exist, and in significant numbers.

I think that both of these criteria reflect usage... do you - or anyone else reading this - agree?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Your two questions on your so called survey I think is probably the most dishonest, false dichotomy I have ever seen in this forum from the day I joined.

Peace.

I am sure that there are some Muslim ones that will give it a run for the money. You should not be so jealous.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Your two questions on your so called survey I think is probably the most dishonest, false dichotomy I have ever seen in this forum from the day I joined.

Peace.

Bullcrap. The only option I see missing is something for people who are ignorant of the facts when they talk about atheism as a belief. Someone who doesn't know (yet) that they are lying, in other words.

Please DESCRIBE the options you see as missing.

The two options are a dichotomy, if you take out the word "lie." As in:

1. I accept the fact that atheism is not a belief
2. No, I do not accept the fact that atheism is not a belief

Because there has already been plenty of discussion surrounding the idea that the word "FACT" in those sentences is correct (i.e. that atheism is not a belief). So, when you add back in the word "lie", the only thing that means is missing at that point is an option for someone who does not accept that atheism is not a belief, but doesn't know that they are lying when they say that it is. For, to be sure, once you KNOW that it is not a belief, to say that it is IS LYING. Of course, this all almost makes the inclusion of the word "lie" moot at that point - because to accept the fact is to then automatically be lying when you speak against what you know to be facts.

Of course... I am pretty sure that @firedragon has blocked me, due to my being extremely combative with him over many of the claims (and quasi-claims - as in, claims he knows he can't make outright, but hints strongly at anyway) he makes in various posts and threads. So it is likely he won't even be able to read this. Pity. I always enjoy smashing his posts to bits.

 

[Lain]

There are two aspects of how we use the word "atheist" that I find useful when considering proposed definitions for the word:

1. Theists aren't atheists. Anyone who believes in any sort of god is not an atheist.

2. Atheists exist. They aren't some hypothetical thing that people speculate might exist; they really do exist, and in significant numbers.

I think that both of these criteria reflect usage... do you - or anyone else reading this - agree?

Whether or not I agree or disagree depends on a great many things I am too deficient to grasp currently. I don't know, it's beyond my strength. Thanks for asking me though.

 

[Vinayaka]

I'd like an option for favorite cheese.
(Parmesan for me.)

I didn't know they had bacon flavored parmesan. Learn sumpin new every day.

 

[Vinayaka]

Clearly atheism is not a belief, one has only to look it up in any dictionary to see this. So lets see if anyone wants to misrepresent it as a belief in this poll.

I don't think it's that they lie, but that they can't comprehend basic logic.

 

[Suave]

Clearly atheism is not a belief, one has only to look it up in any dictionary to see this. So lets see if anyone wants to misrepresent it as a belief in this poll.

Seems to me, atheism has a strong negative connotation among many theists who might likely consider denial of God's existence as being blasphemous. To avoid such negative stigma, I'd like to suggest the word nulliifidianism be used in place of the word atheism, so that nobody gets irked by the word of atheism. Sheldon, would you prefer to be labeled as an atheist or as a nullifidianist? I'd like to pose this question also to all atheists. Would you prefer to be labeled as an atheist or as a nullifidianist?

Never mind, I can't spell nullifidian!

 

[Sheldon]

What are we counting as a dictionary? One might go to dictionary.com and find "the doctrine or belief that there is no God," which is it's first definition, or maybe the second one it has "disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings." I guess one might answer "yes" or "no" based on which one they chose, but which one should be chosen or is correct is another discussion.

One might go to the online Cambridge dictionary if one likes that university prestige on their sources, and find their only definition which says "the belief that God does not exist."

I personally would count something like the SEP or IEP, although they are explicitly encyclopedias, to be useful for being a dictionary on positions, and they both give a multitude of definitions including but not limited to: "It has come to be widely accepted that to be an atheist is to affirm the non-existence of God. Anthony Flew (1984) called this positive atheism, whereas to lack a belief that God or gods exist is to be a negative atheist. Parallels for this use of the term would be terms such as “amoral,” “atypical,” or “asymmetrical.” So negative atheism would includes someone who has never reflected on the question of whether or not God exists and has no opinion about the matter and someone who had thought about the matter a great deal and has concluded either that she has insufficient evidence to decide the question, or that the question cannot be resolved in principle." There is also "If, however, “atheism” is defined in terms of theism and theism is the proposition that God exists and not the psychological condition of believing that there is a God, then it follows that atheism is not the absence of the psychological condition of believing that God exists (more on this below). The “a-” in “atheism” must be understood as negation instead of absence, as “not” instead of “without”. Therefore, in philosophy at least, atheism should be construed as the proposition that God does not exist (or, more broadly, the proposition that there are no gods)."

Take your pick man. With the IEP/SEP quotes I bolded the parts I consider definitional there.

And if you prefer physical book dictionaries I don't own any, I'm totally digital in this, sorry about that.

Edit: you asked for links too, so here are links, hope they work...

Definition of atheism | Dictionary.com
atheism
Atheism | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
Atheism and Agnosticism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Second edit, adding even more dictionaries which say it is a "belief" or include as one definition that it is a "belief" (although this does not answer the question of how we should define belief):

Chambers – Search Chambers
atheism | meaning of atheism in Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English | LDOCE
atheism | Free On-Line English Dictionary | Thesaurus | Children's, Intermediate Dictionary | Wordsmyth
atheism - Wiktionary

atheism noun - Definition, pictures, pronunciation and usage notes | Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary at OxfordLearnersDictionaries.com

OED still defines it as the lack or absence of belief in any deity or deities, and that's what I get from Google. I wonder if some US sources are reflecting common usage in their country primarily? It is one of the most religious countries, certainly among western democracies anyway.

Merriam Webster
a lack of belief or a strong disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods.

Interestingly Collins gives a separate definition for UK English.

NOUN
1. a person who does not believe in God or gods

So perhaps we're getting a feel here for why this conflict of opinion is arising. A lot of US religious apologists Lane Craig for instance has been actively trying to portray atheism as a belief that requires faith for some time.

In the UK atheism is no big deal at all, as with many European democracies.

 

[Sheldon]

I see atheists using the definition of atheism as a defense sometimes in debates, and it looks bad if they themselves use that definition after saying things like "There is no God.", to excuse having a burden of proof to such positive statements.

OK interesting, but this poll is about the definition of atheism rather than what an individual atheists claims or believes.

 

[Windwalker]

Clearly atheism is not a belief, one has only to look it up in any dictionary to see this. So lets see if anyone wants to misrepresent it as a belief in this poll.

Cleary it is. "I believe God does not exist" is identical with saying, "I do not believe God exists". No difference.

 

[Sheldon]

There are two aspects of how we use the word "atheist" that I find useful when considering proposed definitions for the word:

1. Theists aren't atheists. Anyone who believes in any sort of god is not an atheist.

2. Atheists exist. They aren't some hypothetical thing that people speculate might exist; they really do exist, and in significant numbers.

I think that both of these criteria reflect usage... do you - or anyone else reading this - agree?

Well I was looking primarily at the definition of atheism, but clearly atheists can be subcategorised, as some go farther than disbelief. So if all you have is the fact someone is an atheist, I'd say all you can honestly say is that they don't believe in any deity or deities. Unless they specifically offer more of course.

 

[AlexanderG]

The way I see it, there's a set of people who are convinced a god or gods exist. Then there's the set of everyone else, and that's the atheists.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Cleary it is. "I believe God does not exist" is identical with saying, "I do not believe God exists". No difference.

But that is not the belief of atheists. Well not the belief of all atheists.

No, I take that back. It is still wrong for all atheists. And it is also incorrect. There is a difference.

 

[Sheldon]

Cleary it is. "I believe God does not exist" is identical with saying, "I do not believe God exists". No difference.

Can you explain why we have different words then, belief and disbelief or unbelief. If your absurd claim were true, then 2 of those words seem to have no meaning. Believing a deity exists is a claim, as are all beliefs, disbelieving a deity exists is not a claim, that's the difference.

 

[Windwalker]

Please feel free to vote. This is an opportunity to honestly explore where the idea comes forms that atheism is a belief, rather than the lack or absence of belief, to simply try and assert a belief is the same as the lack or absence of a belief is demonstrably absurd to me, but if that's your position.

I can't vote. You did not present an honest legitimate poll. Neither answer is how I would respond.

Add a 3rd choice as an option. "I speak the truth, atheism is a belief". I'll check that one. It's also a position of faith, but I'll just accept saying it is a belief for now.

 

[Augustus]

Clearly atheism is not a belief, one has only to look it up in any dictionary to see this. So lets see if anyone wants to misrepresent it as a belief in this poll.

My atheism is a belief.

Don't need a dictionary to tell me that.

 

[Subduction Zone]

My atheism is a belief.

Don't need a dictionary to tell me that.

It can be for some. But it is not for all. That is why the blanket statement of "Atheism is a belief" is wrong.

 

[Suave]

My atheism is a belief.

Don't need a dictionary to tell me that.

So you are a nullifidianist? Do you absolutely reject the notion of there possibly being a sims controller, a virtual reality programmer of human consciousness?

 

[Kenny]

Please describe, in detail, what the definition of "faith" has to do with the definition of atheism. I am, quite seriously, not understanding why you brought this into the discussion.

Are you asserting that an "atheist" (knowing nothing else about a person) has "faith" that there is no God to be believed in? Is that what you are asserting by bringing the definition of "faith" into the discussion?

It is pretty simple, in my view.

1. The assent of the mind to the truth of a proposition or statement for which there is not complete evidence; belief in general.

It is the assent of the mind of the atheist of a proposition or statement that there is no God, for which their is not complete evidence... it is their belief in general.