Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
This demonstrates
that the 'early fathers' were compiling what was already considered in society
as authentic texts.
What are your thoughts on these guys? I this the type of group you are a part of?
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This demonstrates
that the 'early fathers' were compiling what was already considered in society
as authentic texts.
We are reading the same words,
The law is fulfilled in the head (Christ, male), and body (of Christ, female). This is why the groom, Christ, comes for his bride. There is nothing in the law that is not fulfilled in Christ.What do you mean by all?
There are commandments only for men.
Commandments only for women.
For priests.
For kings.
For nazarites.
For lepers.
Etc.
Oh cool. Where the Torah scroll Jesus wrote?The law is fulfilled in the head (Christ, male), and body (of Christ, female). This is why the groom, Christ, comes for his bride. There is nothing in the law that is not fulfilled in Christ.
Matthew 5:18. 'For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled'.
And my conclusion is that you feel entitled to decide what is a main theme even though you can't even read the text.My conclusion from this dialogue is Jews feel entitled to explain the Torah because they know Hebrew even though they deny it's main theme.
My conclusion from this dialogue is Jews feel entitled to explain the Torah because they know Hebrew even though they deny it's main theme.
I agree it's a complicated thesis I'm presetning...
I think its accurate to say that Jesus desired to fullfill all the law and then act as the solitary gate to the one Jesus calls "TheFather". But that doesn't mean he succeeded. Malachi further states in Chapter 3 "Return to me and follow all the ways of the commandments and I will return to you". According to this Jesus is not the solitary gate. It's possible that he offeres a legitimate path for Christians; but for Jews we are still bound by the original covenenat with many ways included in the path to salvation.
What I'm trying to say is: the path via salvation might be a viable option; but its not the only option. When Jesus says he is the only way; that misrepresents the Covenenat in Tanach. The easy solution is that Jesus was not talking to Jews anymore at John 14:6, he was speaking to his disciples who had already abandoned Jewish principles in favor of Jesus as the solitary avenue to salvation. But it's ot solitary per Deuteronomy 5:33 and Malachi 3:8-9.
If the path to salvation is not only through Jesus (and I think scripture supports this) then the sales pitch from Jesus ( forgive me if this is trite ) is false advertising. He's saying theres only ne way, without disclosing the other legitimate pathes to salvation offered in the Torah. It's lying by omission.
Even if we disagree; do you understand what I'm trying to say?
Jesus Christ is the Word of God.Oh cool. Where the Torah scroll Jesus wrote?
In other words his didn't fulfil every single mitzvah.Jesus Christ is the Word of God.
So...let me see if I got it straight: Jesus uprooted/denounced the traditional Jewish legal system, made a list of morals, and wished everyone good luck with figuring out a new system?It could, and in some ways, actually did. But Christianity of the New Testament
claimed no right to political, judicial or economic power. In fact these powers
were rejected - fine for the world but not for Christians.
All of a sudden I'm 10x happier with what I haveSo...let me see if I got it straight: Jesus uprooted/denounced the traditional Jewish legal system, made a list of morals, and wished everyone good luck with figuring out a new system?
Every single mitzvah is fulfilled in love, and Jesus Christ is the face of God's love.In other words his didn't fulfil every single mitzvah.
I love my boyfriend, so I guess I'm done!!Every single mitzvah is fulfilled in love, and Jesus Christ is the face of God's love.
Just be sure you're loving him with the love of God!I love my boyfriend, so I guess I'm done!!
Ok, so going back to original objection. In order for the new covenant to be binding, the recipient must consent freely, this requires that the condition of all elements of the covenant are accurately described. Do we agree up to this point?If, as I believe, it turns out to be Jesus coming in the clouds from heaven, it will then become evident that there is, indeed, only one way!
John chapter 14 is based on events that took place just hours before Jesus' arrest. He tells his disciples things that are related to his death and ascension. For example in verse 2 Jesus says, 'I go to prepare a place for you.' Then in verse 3 he says, 'And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself:'Ok, so going back to original objection. In order for the new covenant to be binding, the recipient must consent freely, this requires that the condition of all elements of the covenant are accurately described. Do we agree up to this point?
If so, based on what you're saying above, it still sounds as if the salvation is being misrepresented. In order for it to be fairly described, the covenant would include verbage describing the coming from the clouds as a condition for the ideological shift from salvation by works to salvation by grace.
You said the 'way' of the new covenant would not be evidenced until Jesus returns. I think this is an important detail. If it's included, the salvation offered is worth less than if the qualifier is omitted. Without qualification, the offer of salvation is grander. "It's happening now". With the qualification of 2nd advent, the offer is less grand, "it's happening later". it requires a second coming which evidently takes over 2000+ years to occur.
In summary: Don't you think Jesus' offer in John14:6 needed to include mention of the 2nd Coming in order to fairly describe the new covenant? Try thinking about it as a Jewish person at that time. Why would I trade the current covenant for the new one ( the old ways, plural, for a new way ,singular) if it's contingent on a future unscheduled event? Omitting this detail makes the deal more urgent, potentially manipulating their perceived value of the new covenant, compared to the existing covenant. That's my point. Without qualification, the covenant is developed on false pretenses.
Without mentioning the 2nd coming, it's not fair to promise Jesus as the only way unqualified.
So...let me see if I got it straight: Jesus uprooted/denounced the traditional Jewish legal system, made a list of morals, and wished everyone good luck with figuring out a new system?
OK, OK, how about this?John chapter 14 is based on events that took place just hours before Jesus' arrest. He tells his disciples things that are related to his death and ascension. For example in verse 2 Jesus says, 'I go to prepare a place for you.' Then in verse 3 he says, 'And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself:'
Although the promise of a place with Christ is made to the disciples sat at the Last Supper, this same promise applies to all disciples who have lived during the Church Age, over the last two thousand years. To these disciples, Jesus Christ is 'the way, the truth, and the life'. But the additional statement, 'no man cometh to the Father, but by me' makes it clear that his 'truth' is universal.
That 'Torah' Jews are yet to be grafted back into Christ, despite the national rejection of the 'suffering servant', is made plain by Paul, who says, 'For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits, that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.' [Romans 11:25-27]
I was only referring to the legal system.Many early Jewish Christians still respected the Temple,