Israel, the Servant of God

[clara17]

You have a weird definition of Jewish. Either you're Jewish or you're not. If your mother is Jewish so are you. If she isn't, you're a non-Jew. You can't be a 'half-Jew'.


I didn't say it was on my say so. The history of the Samaritans is complex and you evidently have a different view of them. My original point here was about their version of the Torah, which doesn't match the one we have today as accepted by Orthodox Judaism. I guess if you're not an Orthodox Jew this doesn't matter.

Well she isnt, my father is. And I dont beleive in the religion. So categorize me wherever you need to.

I dont have any special views on the Samaritans. They show a long history, which may be credible, may not be.
Correct, we were not talking about who the real Jews are, only if the Samaritan Torah is a reliable source, and its as reliable as anything thats out there.

 

[Rival]

and its as reliable as anything thats out there.

I just wonder what makes you believe this, if you also believe we do not have the originals (of either, afaik) to compare.

 

[clara17]

I just wonder what makes you believe this, if you also believe we do not have the originals (of either, afaik) to compare.

I just explained it above

 

[Redemptionsong]

This differentiation between Davids is of your own making and not something I agree with or particularly care about. We are talking here about King David, son of Jesse, second king of Israel, slayer of Goliath, conquerer of Jerusalem, among other things. One of those other things are psalms that were authored by him. In some of those psalms he refers to himself being in "sheol". Do you agree that he was not dead nor previously dead when he said those things?

Yes, l agree that David was not dead when he wrote those psalms. But l do not think he is referring to himself in many psalms.

In 1 Kings 2:10 it says, 'So David slept with his fathers, and he was buried in the City of David'. So, is there anything to suggest that David is not still sleeping with his fathers?

 

[Harel13]

Yes, l agree that David was not dead when he wrote those psalms. But l do not think he is referring to himself in many psalms.

So when David is speaking in the first person about how God saved "me" from "sheol" he's not referring to himself? And when the Korchites similarly speak about themselves/himself that God saved "me" from "sheol", likewise they were not talking about themselves?
So should we therefore conclude that when Jonah spoke about how "I am" in "sheol", he also wasn't talking about himself?
Okay, gotcha.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Yeshua said that the "until heaven and earth pas away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law," (Matthew 5:18). I dare say, the heaven and earth have not passed away, and the prophets have not been fulfilled. We are still waiting for the nations to be judged all at the same time (Daniel 2:45) & Joel 3:1-2, and for Judah/Jews, and Ephraim (10 lost tribes/Israel) to be gathered out of the nations and joined together, and placed on the and given to Jacob, with king David as their king. (Ezekiel 36 & 37).

Your "message of salvation", is the tare seed, the message of lawlessness, the message of the devil (Matthew 13:38-41), which the tares heed, and for which they will be gathered "first" and tossed into a furnace of fire (Matthew 13:30). We are now at the "end of the age" whereas the angels are getting ready to gather out the tares (Matthew 13:39-40). Your message of "salvation" is the message of the false prophet Paul, whose demon spirit is gathering the nations against Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:1-2) & (Revelation 14:8-10), where upon they will drink from the cup of the anger of God, and according to Zechariah 14:12, will suffer the "plague" of symptoms also described in the book "Hiroshima". I don't know, but it might be in your best interest to read a little deeper into what Yeshua actually said.

There is much written in the Prophets about the Messiah being a 'light to the Gentiles', but l don't see this appearing in your denunciation of the Church. As you see it, the Gentiles get destroyed on the day of the Lord's vengeance, and none are saved. Is that it?

 

[rosends]

Since when is it anything I said a secret? And what did God say about it in the OT?
There is a conspiracy among the men of Jerusalem.
(Or do you have a translation that says otherwise)

Ah, so Judaism is overtly subverting the rectitiude of Christianity! Much better of an accusation. Thank you.

And, if you read a bit more of Jeremiah (oh wait...suddenly, the text is accurate and believable as is because those same Jews who excised Jesus chose to leave in the parts which criticized Jews) you would see that the conspiracy mentioned is in adopting foreign religions ("They, too, have followed other gods and served them.") which would be a criticism not of righteous Jews, nor of the texts but of, um, you know...people who leave Judaism and follow other religions. Like, um, Christianity.

 

[rosends]

Well she isnt, my father is.

So you aren't "half-Jewish." Claiming otherwise, especially as it is a claim made in order to defend the propriety of making a particular statement is fallacious. Your statements attempting to deligitimize Judaism are anti-Semitic even if you have a Jew in your lineage.

I dont have any special views on the Samaritans. They show a long history, which may be credible, may not be.
Correct, we were not talking about who the real Jews are, only if the Samaritan Torah is a reliable source, and its as reliable as anything thats out there.

Can you point me to an online discussion (or the actual text) of the Samaritan version of Psalms (as that was what prompted you to make a claim about changes and discrepancies)? I'd also love to see a link to an image of the DSS for Psalm 16. Thanks ever so much.

 

[2ndpillar]

There is much written in the Prophets about the Messiah being a 'light to the Gentiles', but l don't see this appearing in your denunciation of the Church. As you see it, the Gentiles get destroyed on the day of the Lord's vengeance, and none are saved. Is that it?

The Scripture related to the light to the Gentiles is correlated with "the tribes of Jacob" have been gathered out of the nations/Gentiles (Isaiah 49:6-7) & (Ezekiel 36 & 37), when kings will bow down (Zechariah 14:16). That has not happened as of yet. At that time the nations/Gentiles will cry, we have inherited nothing but falsehood from our fathers (Jeremiah 16:19), which is to say the Gentiles are operating under a false narrative. As for the nations which are "destroyed completely", it will be those in which "O Israel" was scattered (Jeremiah 30:11). Or in the words of Daniel 2:45, the nations described from the head of gold, to the feet of iron and clay. As per Joel 3:1-2, first Jerusalem has to be "restored", which is happening now, and then all the nations will be judged. Judgment day, the great tribulation, will come to the whole world.. The 144,000 "bond servants", from the 12 tribes, from Judah to Benjamin, will be marked to escape from harm from the "four angels".(Revelation 7:3). The rest will feel the whole weight of the great tribulation, and unless the time was not shortened, none would survive (Matthew 24:22).

 

[Redemptionsong]

So when David is speaking in the first person about how God saved "me" from "sheol" he's not referring to himself? And when the Korchites similarly speak about themselves/himself that God saved "me" from "sheol", likewise they were not talking about themselves?
So should we therefore conclude that when Jonah spoke about how "I am" in "sheol", he also wasn't talking about himself?
Okay, gotcha.

In prophecy, the first person is sometimes used by the prophet when referring to words spoken by another. This is clearly seen in lsaiah 61:1, where the speaker is not Isaiah himself.

As stated previously, to my understanding the Hebrew scriptures take the form of a parable. They have both a temporal and spiritual significance. The temporal history of Israel has a higher fulfilment in the person of Christ, the king of lsrael.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yes, l agree that David was not dead when he wrote those psalms. But l do not think he is referring to himself in many psalms.

And there you have the flaw in Christian interpretation.

 

[clara17]

Ah, so Judaism is overtly subverting the rectitiude of Christianity! Much better of an accusation. Thank you.

And, if you read a bit more of Jeremiah (oh wait...suddenly, the text is accurate and believable as is because those same Jews who excised Jesus chose to leave in the parts which criticized Jews) you would see that the conspiracy mentioned is in adopting foreign religions ("They, too, have followed other gods and served them.") which would be a criticism not of righteous Jews, nor of the texts but of, um, you know...people who leave Judaism and follow other religions. Like, um, Christianity.

What text is suddenly accurate?
All the texts follow the same general lines, regardless of the subtle changes that have been made in certain areas.
Obviously if the changes were too glaring, no one would accept the new texts.

"conspiracy mentioned is in adopting foreign religions"

Correct.

"which would be a criticism not of righteous Jews, nor of the texts but of, um, you know...people who leave Judaism and follow other religions."

Incorrect.

God is perfectly clear that his law must be written. (Ex 34:27)
He also requires memorials to make sure future generations don't forget his laws. (Josh 4:6, Deu 19:14, 27:2, 27:17, 31:10, Prov 22:28 and many others)

This is exactly the opposite of the oral, unwritten tradition that became Judaism.
(Mark 7:13 - none effect)

That is the WHOLE POINT of the entire Bible.
This was the message the prophets were sent to deliver to the people.
This is why Jesus said he was sent to the lost sheep.
It was the people who he came to save, not the elders who had misled them for over 1000 years.
This is why God had to perform a miracle to show Ezekiel what was taking place behind closed doors.
Ez 8:12 - See what the ancients of Israel do in secret?

Because of these wolves in sheeps clothing, Israel/Judah did not understand God's words,
so they rejected him/created their own religion,
killed his prophets, killed his Son, and persecuted his followers.

The whole temple-centric religion they created was a farce.
God said not to build a temple, and that he doesn't dwell in earthly temples, but David misunderstood
and actually lied to Solomon about what God said regarding the temple.
These temples were always dedicated to a false god, and they were building one because they wanted to
follow the nations surrounding them, not God.

The same thing happened when they asked for a king. (They are rejecting me not you. 1 Sam 8:7)
They wanted a king, they wanted a temple, they wanted an earthly kingdom.
As it turns out, that is not what God wanted and not what he was building.
This why Jesus' response when they wanted to show off the temple to him,
is that it will go in the trash.

The anti-Christ system did not appear overnight when Jesus appeared.
It was the anti-God system for a long time before that. They hate Jesus, because they hated God first. (John 15:24)

"Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also." John 8:19
"The axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." Matthew 3:10
"Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit." Matt 21:43
"Thus saith the Lord, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein." Jer 6:16

 

[2ndpillar]

I agree that the 'waiting' ends on the day of judgement, but who are we to do the judging now? [2 Peter 3:9,10] Mercy, through the Gospel of grace, has been extended to the Gentiles, and it's the Gentiles who have readily accepted the opportunity to repent and believe in Jesus Christ.

Psalm 18:43. 'Thou hast delivered me from the strivings of the people; and thou hast made me the head of the heathen: a people whom l have not known shall serve me'.

It's only as the 'times of the Gentiles' ends that Judah once again becomes the focus of attention. And this is as it should be, for the first will be last [Luke 13:29,30].

Believing in "Jesus Christ", a 16th century identification, which the demons do also, will not even buy you a cup of coffee (James 2:19). The rock the church is built on is justice and righteousness (Isaiah 28:16-17), or in Yeshua's Matthew 16:16-18 recitation, that being based on the revelation of "My father in heaven", or in effect, the spirit of revelation, and upon this rock the church is built on, not Peter, or that Yeshua is "Christ", the son of God, for which according to Yeshua, all who do the will of My father are his sons, and they have also received the anointing, baptized in the Spirit (Matthew 3). The "heathen" "people", are now under the rule of the prince of heaven, the devil, by way of his leaders/beasts/tyrants/Caesars (Revelation 13:4). King David does not take up rule until after judgment (Ezekiel 34:22-23) & (Zechariah 14:16), when the survivors will bow down to the king in Jerusalem, and celebrate the feast of Booths, yearly. That has not happened as of this date Apart from you misrepresenting what the unknown writer of 2 Peter wrote in 3:9-10, it is based on giving everyone a chance to repent, and has not anything to do with a false gospel of grace/cross. His point was that one is to repent from sin for judgment day will be a burning event. Somewhat of a copy of Joel 3. If you read the death statistics in Revelation, they are quite high.

2 Peter 3:9-10 9The LORD is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 10But the day of the LORD will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

 

[clara17]

So you aren't "half-Jewish." Claiming otherwise, especially as it is a claim made in order to defend the propriety of making a particular statement is fallacious. Your statements attempting to deligitimize Judaism are anti-Semitic even if you have a Jew in your lineage.


Can you point me to an online discussion (or the actual text) of the Samaritan version of Psalms (as that was what prompted you to make a claim about changes and discrepancies)? I'd also love to see a link to an image of the DSS for Psalm 16. Thanks ever so much.

I assume thats a joke. It was a much broader discussion about the texts that can be compared with the Masoretic not about Ps 16 only.

 

[clara17]

So you aren't "half-Jewish." Claiming otherwise, especially as it is a claim made in order to defend the propriety of making a particular statement is fallacious. Your statements attempting to deligitimize Judaism are anti-Semitic even if you have a Jew in your lineage.

Well I guess you are the judge and jury.
Should I delete my account?

Are all religions exempt from criticisms? or just yours?

 

[rosends]

I assume thats a joke. It was a much broader discussion about the texts that can be compared with the Masoretic not about Ps 16 only.

Not a joke -- I pointed out a word in Ps 16 and you responded that we can't be sure of the accuracy of the text and later cited the DSS and Sam text to show that there are variants. Please show.

 

[74x12]

We aren't talking about Adam and Eve. We are talking about obedience to 613 laws. So tell me, do you just not agree iwth Proverbs 24:16?

You know it; but it never indicates how God can forgive anyone. Only that he does do it. That changes nothing.

We are talking about obedience to the Law of God; which is the exact thing Adam and Eve didn't do and this resulted in their death and ours also. Besides, the book of Genesis was written by Moses and is the first book of the Torah (law) of God.

Let's be clear. Sin offerings were only for unintentional sins. If you sinned on purpose, the you had to repent. No sacrifice atoned for intentional sins.
But none of this is even related to your original point.

Unintentional sins are small and intentional ones are great. What I said still stands. This changes nothing.

As I showed you, perfect observance of the 613 is not needed to be considered a good person.

You are good even though you've broken the Law? I think goodness is God's alone. You aren't good and he even finds fault in the stars (Job 25:5) not to mention humans. No one is good. You're a sinner under the law as are we all and God is good enough to forgive. That goodness is not yours but God's alone.

Isaiah 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

Also see Psalm 143:1-2

He doesn't. At least, not in th Tanakh. The idea that blood is necessary is a New Testament idea only.

Isaiah 53 shows us he does want blood for sins.

But if you are right; then why does God demand sacrifices for unintentional sins? It would make no sense if he can easily forgive intentional sins.

The whole covenant with God was based on blood as it says Moses sprinkled blood on the book and on the people and said "behold the blood of the covenant" (Exodus 24:8)

So then there is no covenant with God at all without blood; much less any forgiveness for sins. It is apparently very necessary.

 

[rosends]

Well I guess you are the judge and jury.

Jewish law is.

Should I delete my account?

That's up to you. Since it is irrelevant to this discussion, it is more a reflection of your own priorities than anything else.

Are all religions exempt from criticisms? or just yours?

Why, do you go around claiming that other religious are based on lies and deceit?

 

[2ndpillar]

Jesus was the fulfillment of the law. The law has not passed away in the fact that he is alive. They didnt understand his words. Everything he spoke of was spiritual. (John 18:36) Just as they didnt understand the words of the prophets. They were looking for a physical kingdom, a Messiah with a sword to take down Rome, etc. One who would establish their superiority over other nations.

The message of salvation was not a creation of Paul. (Matt 10:22, Matt 10:32, John 3:16, John 8:24, John 14:6, Mark 16:16, etc)
And Paul did not promote lawlessness, but some choose to take it that way.
(1 Cor:10:23, Rom 6:2)
Having said that, Pauls words dont carry nearly as much weight as Jesus'

Paul's message to the Gentiles was that they weren't under the law, or even to keep the covenant given to the nations, via the father of nations, Abraham (Zechariah 11:10). But to worship on God's mountain, even for strangers, one must keep the My covenant/Commandments and the Sabbath (Isaiah 56:6). Do the Gentiles keep God's commandments and his Sabbath, or do they follow the apostles, prophets, leaders put in place by Paul. As for the "house of Israel", Ephraim, they remain "scattered" among the nations (Ezekiel 36:19), and are yet still under the law, and when they are given a new heart and spirit (Ezekiel 36:26-27), "they will observe my ordinances". Jeremiah 31:31-33 The Commandments are for every person (Ecclesiastes 12:13). Yeshua was sent as the prophet to come, in whom you must heed, and he was to send out fishers of men, but later, hunters of men will be sent out to bring in the "sons of Israel", the lost tribes/sheep of Israel. (Jeremiah 16:14-16), to the land given to Jacob. Judah has been gathered in to the land given to Jacob, but not Ephraim, and they haven't been joined, at which time David will be king (Ezekiel 37). As for the spiritual kingdom, of power and spirit, the Gentiles have neither, for they can neither raise the dead or heal the sick. (James 5:15) They have followed the message of the devil, which is the tare seed, and those who commit lawlessness will be gathered and thrown into the furnace of fire (great tribulation). Matthew 13:38-42 Paul's witness is a self witness, which according to Yeshua, "is not true", (John 5:31) The fruit of Paul's tree (Paul's church) is apparently rotten, which would identify him as a false prophet (Matthew 7:15-21). As for Paul speaking out of the side of his mouth, such as with a forked tongue, the devil also quotes from the bible, yet his overall aim is one of deception. The devil is probably aware of his deception. In the case of Paul, he seems to simply to be under the control of his demons. (Revelation 14:13). Regardless, at the end of the age, the stumbling blocks, such as Peter (Matthew 16:23), and those who commit lawlessness will be removed (Matthew 13:40-41).

 

[clara17]

Not a joke -- I pointed out a word in Ps 16 and you responded that we can't be sure of the accuracy of the text and later cited the DSS and Sam text to show that there are variants. Please show.

yes later when we were talking about the validity of Masoretic vs other texts. It was a prime example, where Holy One, capitalized, had been replaced with something more vague that could be taken to mean someone other than the Messiah. Similar to what the Masoretes did to the older texts. You will say, well the words Holy One from the kjv are based on the Masoretes. Yes. No one said the work was completed back then. It continues.