• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Israel, the Servant of God

clara17

Memorable member
Ah, so your approach is to deny the validity of the entire canon of Jewish text because it can't be twisted to say the words that you think should be there. Got it and TFP.

Well, its pretty clear from the "edits" in the Masoretic texts, the purpose was to hide the references to Jesus in the Old Testament that were too "uncomfortable." Why should a much more modern version be any different.
 

clara17

Memorable member
Yeshua's message was the coming kingdom, which is encapsulated in the "law and the prophets" (Matthew 5:17-18). The "Law and the prophets" is the "Word" of God. The "Word of God" is coming to to "smite the nations/Gentiles" (Revelation 19:13-14) in the day of the Lord.

New King James Version Colossians 2:14
having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Im not sure what you are saying here.
Col 2:14 is saying the law was nailed to the cross, not the message of salvation.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Well, its pretty clear from the "edits" in the Masoretic texts, the purpose was to hide the references to Jesus in the Old Testament that were too "uncomfortable." Why should a much more modern version be any different.
How do you know the text was 'edited' if you also say we no longer have the text in its original form? Could have just as easily been the Christians who distorted and mistranslated, just as Paul does.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Well, its pretty clear from the "edits" in the Masoretic texts, the purpose was to hide the references to Jesus in the Old Testament that were too "uncomfortable." Why should a much more modern version be any different.
yes...yes...every third word was "Jesus" before the sneaky Masoretes excised it all. A huge conspiracy, that's what it is.
Judaism is a complete con job to hide your messianic belief. How sneaky of us. Glad to see your particular opinion come to light so quickly.
 

clara17

Memorable member
How do you know the text was 'edited' if you also say we no longer have the text in its original form? Could have just as easily been the Christians who distorted and mistranslated, just as Paul does.

by comparison with the Samaritan text, the Dead Sea Scrolls, Septuagint.
(Agreed, anyone, everyone could have tampered, edited, concealed things in the texts.) We are left to judge people by their fruits and judge the texts by how well the fit with what we see.
 

clara17

Memorable member
yes...yes...every third word was "Jesus" before the sneaky Masoretes excised it all. A huge conspiracy, that's what it is.
Judaism is a complete con job to hide your messianic belief. How sneaky of us. Glad to see your particular opinion come to light so quickly.

Since when is it anything I said a secret? And what did God say about it in the OT?
There is a conspiracy among the men of Jerusalem.
(Or do you have a translation that says otherwise)
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
by comparison with the Samaritan text, the Dead Sea Scrolls, Septuagint.
(Agreed, anyone, everyone could have tampered, edited, concealed things in the texts.) We are left to judge people by their fruits and judge the texts by how well the fit with what we see.
So you compare it to a text by a group now considered not-Jewish; texts by a non-traditional, possibly heretical group; and a text that has only survived in a later edited form as kept by Christians (we haven't the original LXX; it's long gone - we only have the Christian editions thereof).

Christian fruit tastes bitter.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Im not sure what you are saying here.
Col 2:14 is saying the law was nailed to the cross, not the message of salvation.

Yeshua said that the "until heaven and earth pas away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law," (Matthew 5:18). I dare say, the heaven and earth have not passed away, and the prophets have not been fulfilled. We are still waiting for the nations to be judged all at the same time (Daniel 2:45) & Joel 3:1-2, and for Judah/Jews, and Ephraim (10 lost tribes/Israel) to be gathered out of the nations and joined together, and placed on the and given to Jacob, with king David as their king. (Ezekiel 36 & 37).

Your "message of salvation", is the tare seed, the message of lawlessness, the message of the devil (Matthew 13:38-41), which the tares heed, and for which they will be gathered "first" and tossed into a furnace of fire (Matthew 13:30). We are now at the "end of the age" whereas the angels are getting ready to gather out the tares (Matthew 13:39-40). Your message of "salvation" is the message of the false prophet Paul, whose demon spirit is gathering the nations against Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:1-2) & (Revelation 14:8-10), where upon they will drink from the cup of the anger of God, and according to Zechariah 14:12, will suffer the "plague" of symptoms also described in the book "Hiroshima". I don't know, but it might be in your best interest to read a little deeper into what Yeshua actually said.
 

clara17

Memorable member
So you compare it to a text by a group now considered not-Jewish; texts by a non-traditional, possibly heretical group; and a text that has only survived in a later edited form as kept by Christians (we haven't the original LXX; it's long gone - we only have the Christian editions thereof).

Christian fruit tastes bitter.

A group now considered "not Jewish"? What is that supposed to mean?

Samaritans claim they can show their heritage going back to Levi, so they wouldnt be Jewish in the first place, but what would that have to do with the validity of their text?
And who would have the authority to rule people "Jewish" or not, and where would they get that authority?

And texts by a "possibly heretical" group? And? According to whom?
So we can no longer analyze the texts?

If 3 texts say one thing, and a 4th one says the opposite, its safer to assume one was changed, not the other 3. 3 would require a much bigger "conspiracy" than 1.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Samaritans claim they can show their heritage going back to Levi, so they wouldnt be Jewish in the first place, but what would that have to do with the validity of their text?
Samaritans can or could claim whatever they liked. Doesn't make it true.

And who would have the authority to rule people "Jewish" or not, and where would they get that authority?
The Jewish people.

And texts by a "possibly heretical" group? And? According to whom?
According to quite a few groups. The DSS manuscripts do not represent normative Judaism of their time. The DSS include texts that were unique to that group, as well as texts that were not canonised into the Tanakh. Most scholars agree that whoever produced these scrolls were a Jewish sect, not normative Jews, or even proto-Christians.

Spanish Jesuit José O'Callaghan Martínez argued in the 1960s that one fragment (7Q5) preserves a portion of text from the New Testament Gospel of Mark 6:52–53.[438] This theory was scrutinized in the year 2000 by paleographic analysis of the particular fragment. However, this faced some contention, and O'Callaghan's theory remains an area of great dispute. Later analyses in 2004 and 2018, have lent credence to O'Callaghan's original assertion.

Robert Eisenman has advanced the theory that some scrolls describe the early Christian community. Eisenman also argued that the careers of James the Just and Paul the Apostle correspond to events recorded in some of these documents.[439]


So we can no longer analyze the texts?
I didn't say this.

If 3 texts say one thing, and a 4th one says the opposite, its safer to assume one was changed, not the other 3. 3 would require a much bigger "conspiracy" than 1.
Or that these texts were produced by sects with their own sectarian agendas.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Since when is it anything I said a secret? And what did God say about it in the OT?
There is a conspiracy among the men of Jerusalem.
(Or do you have a translation that says otherwise)

The conspiracy among the men of Jerusalem, that, I remember, was that they worshipped/knelt to the sun god Marduk/Bel. Something the Gentiles do every Sun day, the day of the sun god, Sol Invictus, of the Roman emperor Constantine, whose day of rest was established in 321 AD. For such actions the Jewish conspirators were well punished. That mark of Constantine, the beast with two horns like a lamb, is one to be avoided. (Revelation 13).
 

clara17

Memorable member
Yeshua said that the "until heaven and earth pas away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law," (Matthew 5:18). I dare say, the heaven and earth have not passed away, and the prophets have not been fulfilled. We are still waiting for the nations to be judged all at the same time (Daniel 2:45) & Joel 3:1-2, and for Judah/Jews, and Ephraim (10 lost tribes/Israel) to be gathered out of the nations and joined together, and placed on the and given to Jacob, with king David as their king. (Ezekiel 36 & 37).

Your "message of salvation", is the tare seed, the message of lawlessness, the message of the devil (Matthew 13:38-41), which the tares heed, and for which they will be gathered "first" and tossed into a furnace of fire (Matthew 13:30). We are now at the "end of the age" whereas the angels are getting ready to gather out the tares (Matthew 13:39-40). Your message of "salvation" is the message of the false prophet Paul, whose demon spirit is gathering the nations against Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:1-2) & (Revelation 14:8-10), where upon they will drink from the cup of the anger of God, and according to Zechariah 14:12, will suffer the "plague" of symptoms also described in the book "Hiroshima". I don't know, but it might be in your best interest to read a little deeper into what Yeshua actually said.

Jesus was the fulfillment of the law. The law has not passed away in the fact that he is alive. They didnt understand his words. Everything he spoke of was spiritual. (John 18:36) Just as they didnt understand the words of the prophets. They were looking for a physical kingdom, a Messiah with a sword to take down Rome, etc. One who would establish their superiority over other nations.

The message of salvation was not a creation of Paul. (Matt 10:22, Matt 10:32, John 3:16, John 8:24, John 14:6, Mark 16:16, etc)
And Paul did not promote lawlessness, but some choose to take it that way.
(1 Cor:10:23, Rom 6:2)
Having said that, Pauls words dont carry nearly as much weight as Jesus'
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
You will find that David confessed his sin, repented, and produced good fruit, to end his being cut off from God, which is the condition of the walking dead, the sinners (Psalsm 51).. The same message given in Matthew 3. The "mercy" in the present sense, is God is giving everyone a chance to repent, such as turn away from sin. The definition of "sin" is transgression of the Law. The message of Yeshua in Matthew 3, was that without production of "good fruit", one is cut off and tossed into the fire.

Isaiah 30:18 Therefore the Lord waiteth that he may have mercy on you: and therefore shall he be exalted sparing you: because the Lord is the God of judgment: blessed are all they that wait for him.

The "waiting" ends on the day of the Lord.

In the day of the Lord, there will be survivors from Jerusalem and Zion (Joel 2:31-32). As for the nations/Gentiles, they will be judged (Joel 3:2) and smitten/crushed (Revelations 19:13-21) & (Daniel 2:45).
I agree that the 'waiting' ends on the day of judgement, but who are we to do the judging now? [2 Peter 3:9,10] Mercy, through the Gospel of grace, has been extended to the Gentiles, and it's the Gentiles who have readily accepted the opportunity to repent and believe in Jesus Christ.

Psalm 18:43. 'Thou hast delivered me from the strivings of the people; and thou hast made me the head of the heathen: a people whom l have not known shall serve me'.

It's only as the 'times of the Gentiles' ends that Judah once again becomes the focus of attention. And this is as it should be, for the first will be last [Luke 13:29,30].
 
Last edited:

clara17

Memorable member
Samaritans can or could claim whatever they liked. Doesn't make it true.


The Jewish people.


According to quite a few groups. The DSS manuscripts do not represent normative Judaism of their time. The DSS include texts that were unique to that group, as well as texts that were not canonised into the Tanakh. Most scholars agree that whoever produced these scrolls were a Jewish sect, not normative Jews, or even proto-Christians.

Spanish Jesuit José O'Callaghan Martínez argued in the 1960s that one fragment (7Q5) preserves a portion of text from the New Testament Gospel of Mark 6:52–53.[438] This theory was scrutinized in the year 2000 by paleographic analysis of the particular fragment. However, this faced some contention, and O'Callaghan's theory remains an area of great dispute. Later analyses in 2004 and 2018, have lent credence to O'Callaghan's original assertion.

Robert Eisenman has advanced the theory that some scrolls describe the early Christian community. Eisenman also argued that the careers of James the Just and Paul the Apostle correspond to events recorded in some of these documents.[439]



I didn't say this.


Or that these texts were produced by sects with their own sectarian agendas.

I didnt say the DSS were authentic. No one could claim to know that. All I said is there all multiple sources that show what the Masoretes did to the text. You can claim all of them are false. Maybe. But the evidence points the other way.

And as far as your statement the "Jewish people" have the authority to rule people Jewish or not, which Jewish people? Name one Jewish person who has that authority, and where they got it from.

There are Jewish people in just about every country on earth, of varying races and backgrounds. Which ones have this authority?
And which of the 12 tribes are they from?
The Samaritans can show a somewhat credible genealogy going back several thousand years.
Can any Jewish person today do that? Who?
So dismissing their text because they "arent Jewish" is nonsense.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
All I said is there all multiple sources that show what the Masoretes did to the text.
You can't know this without the original Masoretic text.

And as far as your statement the "Jewish people" have the authority to rule people Jewish or not, which Jewish people?
Oh here we go.

Not today, not ever. Not having this discussion.
 

clara17

Memorable member
The conspiracy among the men of Jerusalem, that, I remember, was that they worshipped/knelt to the sun god Marduk/Bel. Something the Gentiles do every Sun day, the day of the sun god, Sol Invictus, of the Roman emperor Constantine, whose day of rest was established in 321 AD. For such actions the Jewish conspirators were well punished. That mark of Constantine, the beast with two horns like a lamb, is one to be avoided. (Revelation 13).

Correct. The conspiracy was that the religion that the elders of Israel were teaching, their "tradition" was actually the worship of the sun God. (Ez 8:12-16)
And you are correct about the Roman church
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Of course you arent. Because youre speaking nonsense.
No, it's because it's a tactic Christians and others use to try to delegitimise the Jewish people. It's anti-Semitic nonsense and I won't interact with it.
 

clara17

Memorable member
No, it's because it's a tactic Christians and others use to try to delegitimise the Jewish people. It's anti-Semitic nonsense and I won't interact with it.

1. Im half Jewish. So the little anti-semite escape tactic doesnt work
2. YOU said the Samaritan people dont get to be Jewish cause you said so, and their texts arent credible sources.
(even though they can trace a much longer history than just about any group on earth.)

I turn YOUR question around on you and IM a racist. Who do you think youre fooling with this?
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
1. Im half Jewish. So the little anti-semite escape tactic doesnt work
You have a weird definition of Jewish. Either you're Jewish or you're not. If your mother is Jewish so are you. If she isn't, you're a non-Jew. You can't be a 'half-Jew'.

2. YOU said the Samaritan people dont get to be Jewish cause you said so, and their texts arent credible sources.
(even though they can trace a much longer history than just about any group on earth.)
I didn't say it was on my say so. The history of the Samaritans is complex and you evidently have a different view of them. My original point here was about their version of the Torah, which doesn't match the one we have today as accepted by Orthodox Judaism. I guess if you're not an Orthodox Jew this doesn't matter.
 
Top