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Israel, the Servant of God

clara17

Memorable member
Who says that I am discussing modern Hebrew? Biblical Hebrew has been studied and taught in Jewish contexts for a long, long time. It just so happens, I started learning it almost 50 years ago. My modern Hebrew skills are no where near as good.

Unless you also think that because modern English is not the same as Shakespearean English, we can't study Shakespeare...

Do you know of a source where the original Hebrew texts can be seen? I dont. The oldest OT I know of is in Latin.
What I'm saying is, none of really know what the oldest originals said, since we have translations of translations.
I can't say for certain which version of Psalm 16:10 is closest to the original, nor can you
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I think the translations are going to be so different there would be no point in debating with someone who uses the kjv/masoretic version. They are different books entirely.
The KJV also uses the Greek Septuagint and Latin vulgate as foundations for its translation. Its one of the reasons is the worst translation out there.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Do you know of a source where the original Hebrew texts can be seen? I dont. The oldest OT I know of is in Latin.
What I'm saying is, none of really know what the oldest originals said, since we have translations of translations.
I can't say for certain which version of Psalm 16:10 is closest to the original, nor can you
Ah, so your approach is to deny the validity of the entire canon of Jewish text because it can't be twisted to say the words that you think should be there. Got it and TFP.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
If you believe that the Messiah is born the 'son of David', at what point does he ascend to heaven? Or does he remain a king on earth forever?
I feel we've gotten too side-tracked. We can talk about the messiah somewhere else. First, do you now agree with me that using the word sheol does not necessarily literally the person is in sheol/"hell"?
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
I feel we've gotten too side-tracked. We can talk about the messiah somewhere else. First, do you now agree with me that using the word sheol does not necessarily literally the person is in sheol/"hell"?
In the JPS 1985 notes on Psalm 6.6, it says, ' Biblical lsrael knew of no afterlife with reward and punishment - everyone, irrespective of behaviour or social status, descended to 'She'ol', the dark underworld, and lived a quasi-life there. Among the dead may be translated 'in the place of death,' paralleling 'She'ol'.'

So if a person is in 'the belly of She'ol' they are most definitely in the place of death. This may only be the death of the body, but it is certainly 'a place of death'.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
The "son of man" in Daneil refers to Israel. And in the vision, the son of man is not ascending into heaven, but descending out of heaven. I thought we already went through that.
That's ridiculous. How can all lsrael ascend to the throne of God 'as a human being' [JPS] and be granted dominion over 'All peoples and nations of every language'?

Do you not believe that 'David my servant' [Ezekiel 37:24 ] will be king over lsrael?
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
The "son of man" in Daneil refers to Israel. And in the vision, the son of man is not ascending into heaven, but descending out of heaven. I thought we already went through that.
Here's quoting from the JPS, Daniel 7:13, 14.
'As l looked on, in the night vision,
One like a human being
Came with the clouds of heaven;
He reached the Ancient of Days
And was presented to Him.
Dominion, glory, and kingship were given to him;
All peoples and nations of every language must serve him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not pass away,
And his kingship, one that shall not be destroyed'.


Please read it carefully. We know that the 'Ancient of Days' is God. 'One like a human being' reaches God. So, where is God? Is His throne not in heaven?
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
In the JPS 1985 notes on Psalm 6.6, it says, ' Biblical lsrael knew of no afterlife with reward and punishment - everyone, irrespective of behaviour or social status, descended to 'She'ol', the dark underworld, and lived a quasi-life there. Among the dead may be translated 'in the place of death,' paralleling 'She'ol'.'
Well, bully for the JPS. Nonetheless, whatever the "Biblical Israel" view was, it is irrelevant to our discussion. Was David dead and was he then resurrected and only then did he write the psalms where he mentioned sheol? Yes or no?
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Here's quoting from the JPS, Daniel 7:13, 14.
'As l looked on, in the night vision,
One like a human being
Came with the clouds of heaven;
He reached the Ancient of Days
And was presented to Him.
Dominion, glory, and kingship were given to him;
All peoples and nations of every language must serve him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not pass away,
And his kingship, one that shall not be destroyed'.


Please read it carefully. We know that the 'Ancient of Days' is God. 'One like a human being' reaches God. So, where is God? Is His throne not in heaven?
God is everywhere.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
That's ridiculous. How can all lsrael ascend to the throne of God 'as a human being' [JPS] and be granted dominion over 'All peoples and nations of every language'?

Do you not believe that 'David my servant' [Ezekiel 37:24 ] will be king over lsrael?
Go back and read what I wrote again. Your comment here makes no sense at all given what I actually said.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Well, bully for the JPS. Nonetheless, whatever the "Biblical Israel" view was, it is irrelevant to our discussion. Was David dead and was he then resurrected and only then did he write the psalms where he mentioned sheol? Yes or no?
I want to distinguish, first of all, between David [1], who lived three thousand ago, and 'David [2] my servant' [Ezekiel 37:24] who 'shall be king over them'. The first was a temporal king, the second is the everlasting king.

There are many parallels between David 1 and David 2. But there are also some important differences. David 1, for instance, commits sin, whereas David 2 does not.

David 1, who wrote many of the Psalms, is in the grave, and dead, at the present time.
David 2 is waiting to return to earth, having already been resurrected, and having already ascended to heaven. When he does return to earth, he will raise the saints from the dead, and that will include David1.

IMO.
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
God is everywhere.
Well, you obviously don't believe your own scripture, which states emphatically that the throne of God is in heaven.

JPS lsaiah 66:1.
'Thus saith the LORD:
The heaven is My throne
And the earth is My footstool:'


Is there, at this time, a kingdom of God on earth? I understand that you still await your Messiah?
 
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Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
David 1, who wrote many of the Psalms, is in the grave, and dead, at the present time.
This is the only David that is relevant to our current discussion. This David, who composed psalms describing himself in "sheol" - did not die and was then resurrected and then wrote psalms about "sheol". Agree?
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
This is the only David that is relevant to our current discussion. This David, who composed psalms describing himself in "sheol" - did not die and was then resurrected and then wrote psalms about "sheol". Agree?
No. How can David 1 be alive when the resurrection of the dead has not yet taken place?
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
No. How can David 1 be alive when the resurrection of the dead has not yet taken place?
Thank you. So evidently we're in agreement that when David is speaking about him in "sheol", he doesn't literally mean a place where dead people dwell. Hence, evidence for Jonah as well.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Thank you. So evidently we're in agreement that when David is speaking about him in "sheol", he doesn't literally mean a place where dead people dwell. Hence, evidence for Jonah as well.
When you say 'him' in She'ol', are you referring to David 1 or David 2? David 1 is a prophet, and his prophecies do not refer to himself. For example, the death described in Psalm 22 is not a death that David 1 experienced. It was a prophecy depicting the death of David 2.
 
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2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
how is it you believe in him, if you nail his message to the cross?

It wasnt his message on the cross, it was his body.

Yeshua's message was the coming kingdom, which is encapsulated in the "law and the prophets" (Matthew 5:17-18). The "Law and the prophets" is the "Word" of God. The "Word of God" is coming to to "smite the nations/Gentiles" (Revelation 19:13-14) in the day of the Lord.

New King James Version Colossians 2:14
having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
I think you should look up the word 'mercy', because when you do you will find the book of Psalms contains more uses of the word than any other book in the Bible. The Psalms provide us with David's inner struggles and mindset, and show that God is merciful to those who approach him with a contrite spirit.

Judgment and vengeance is not what Jesus Christ came to offer.

You will find that David confessed his sin, repented, and produced good fruit, to end his being cut off from God, which is the condition of the walking dead, the sinners (Psalsm 51).. The same message given in Matthew 3. The "mercy" in the present sense, is God is giving everyone a chance to repent, such as turn away from sin. The definition of "sin" is transgression of the Law. The message of Yeshua in Matthew 3, was that without production of "good fruit", one is cut off and tossed into the fire.

Isaiah 30:18 Therefore the Lord waiteth that he may have mercy on you: and therefore shall he be exalted sparing you: because the Lord is the God of judgment: blessed are all they that wait for him.

The "waiting" ends on the day of the Lord.

In the day of the Lord, there will be survivors from Jerusalem and Zion (Joel 2:31-32). As for the nations/Gentiles, they will be judged (Joel 3:2) and smitten/crushed (Revelations 19:13-21) & (Daniel 2:45).
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
When you say 'him' in She'ol', are you referring to David 1 or David 2? David 1 is a prophet, and his prophecies do not refer to himself. For example, the death described in Psalm 22 is not a death that David 1 experienced. It was a prophecy depicting the death of David 2.
This differentiation between Davids is of your own making and not something I agree with or particularly care about. We are talking here about King David, son of Jesse, second king of Israel, slayer of Goliath, conquerer of Jerusalem, among other things. One of those other things are psalms that were authored by him. In some of those psalms he refers to himself being in "sheol". Do you agree that he was not dead nor previously dead when he said those things?
 
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