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A Serious Question To Self-Proclaimed Atheists ...

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AppieB

Active Member
I am a theist, and I do not accept or assert that God/gods exist as a truth claim. Which is why what I believe or don't believe does not and should not define theism.
You say you're a theist and in your profile it says "Christian".
Do you believe God exists?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Unexplained logic is worthless to anyone but me. So I explain the logic of my reasoning. And that's all I am asking of the atheists, here. I don't own any particular logic, and neither does anyone else.
So you decide that your understanding is correct for something which is in part subjective and declare all other versions wrong. Okay, you can do that. And others will still do it differently.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Belief has nothing to do with it. Theism is the claim. What you or anyone believes about the claim is irrelevant to the fact of the claim itself: ... that the claim stands before you.

I think you should ask yourself why it's so important to you that you drag people's beliefs into what is otherwise a simple, clear, proposition. Why can't you just face the proposition, and respond to it?
This is the definition of "theism" from Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

"belief in the existence of a god or gods -- specifically: belief in the existence of one God viewed as the creative source of the human race and the world who transcends yet is immanent in the world."

This is from the Oxford Reference: "Belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures."

Collins English Dictionary: "the form of the belief in one God as the transcendent creator and ruler of the universe."

In fact, everywhere I look, theism is defined as a BELIEF.

Why do you want to turn it into something else?
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
I am not making up any definitions.

Then where did you get them from because people (myself included) have pointed at actual definitions from reputable sources?
I am simply ignoring all the misapplied ones.

You mean the ones that come from standard dictionaries and from the very people who hold the position that you addressed this thread to ("self-proclaimed atheists")? It's not up to you to re-define the language and other people's beliefs because they don't fit nicely with what you want to be true.

Trying to deny that you're ignoring the standard English usage and using a straw man fallacy, is rather pointless as it's blindingly obvious that is what you are doing. The evidence is all over this thread.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
You say you're a theist and in your profile it says "Christian".
Do you believe God exists?
No, I don't believe God exists. I don't believe God doesn't exist, either. Why would I 'believe' either when I have no way available to me of making such a determination? I don't even know how a God could exist given the basic idea that God is the source, sustenance, and purpose of all that is.

I'm a theist because I choose to accept the possibility of God existing, and I choose to conceptualize that possibility in a way that brings value into my life when I act in accordance with it.

I am a Christian only in the sense that I agree with the basic revelation and promise of Christianity as I understand it. That is that a divine spirit within us can and will heal us and save us from ourselves if we will allow ourselves to embody it. And we can then help to heal and save others, too.

I am also a Taoist in that I accept that as a human being I cannot know the Way. But I can embody it, nevertheless, through honesty, humility, and spontaneity.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
This is the definition of "theism" from Merriam-Webster Dictionary:...
Yeah, I don't care. Dictionaries only record all the ways we use words. Including all the stupid ways we use them. They are not an arbiter of the logical use of words.

If you have to run to a dictionary to justify your use of a word because you couldn't do so logically, yourself, then ... I'm not likely to accept your use of the word.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I cannot determine the nature or existence of infinity, and yet I can still perceive it as an ideal, even if a profoundly mysterious one.

The truth nearly always appears paradoxical to our human minds. It's an artifact of how the human brain functions (compare/contrast/repeat).
And yet you get a mental "blue screen of death" when you hear the word "atheist." Weird.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Yeah, I don't care. Dictionaries only record all the ways we use words. Including all the stupid ways we use them. They are not an arbiter of the logical use of words.

The hilarity becomes ever more palpable. At least you've stopped the pointless sophistry that you are not contradicting the dictionary definition of words, but then that ship of sophistry had pretty much sailed.

now that you have abandoned the dictionary I suppose we can all use whatever words we want to mean anything we want

Shoebox, boot polish, elastic band....that would previously have been this should be fun, this is the last time I'll explain the new words though.

Only to PureX of course, since these are his made up rules.
 

AppieB

Active Member
I'm a theist because I choose to accept the possibility of God existing
Sounds a bit like an agnostic to me.

and I choose to conceptualize that possibility in a way that brings value into my life when I act in accordance with it.
So you don't really care if what you believe is true. You are just faking it because you thinks it's valuable.

Hey, whatever rocks your boat. But I find it peculiar you call atheists "illogical".
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
But that's a very subjective reason, not a logical one. And although you will claim that by "making sense to you", you mean it's logical, that doesn't mean it's logical. Which is why I'm asking for the logic.

I am not sure on what you mean by 'logical reason'. Can you further elaborate?

For example, justice is a "human creation", yet I assume you aren't presuming that justice does't exist. Or that it's existence has no effect in and on reality. So why have you chosen to assume so with 'God'?

Justice is an ideal, not a discrete entity that exists outside of our minds.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Yeah, I don't care. Dictionaries only record all the ways we use words. Including all the stupid ways we use them. They are not an arbiter of the logical use of words.

If you have to run to a dictionary to justify your use of a word because you couldn't do so logically, yourself, then ... I'm not likely to accept your use of the word.
Well, okay then. But in that case, you have definitely merely set up a straw man. And that makes your question unanswerable and not worth pursuing.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Sounds a bit like an agnostic to me.


So you don't really care if what you believe is true. You are just faking it because you thinks it's valuable.

Hey, whatever rocks your boat. But I find it peculiar you call atheists "illogical".
Aye, he's a self identified Christian who doesn't believe his God exists.
But he scorns us because we don't believe any gods exist.
That is not organized thinking.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Including all the stupid ways we use them. They are not an arbiter of the logical use of words.

Whereas you are...? :facepalm:
If you have to run to a dictionary to justify your use of a word because you couldn't do so logically, yourself, then ... I'm not likely to accept your use of the word.

The first step in using logic is to make sure your terms are defined. You can't determine the meaning of a term using logic alone, that makes zero sense. Dictionary definitions may contain different senses and there may be specialist senses which aren't there, but people here have been absolutely crystal clear about what they mean, and referenced the normal usage.

You've just been stamping your foot and refusing to accept it, not because you've given any logic (you haven't), but apparently just because you don't like the implications.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I am not sure on what you mean by 'logical reason'. Can you further elaborate?

Justice is an ideal, not a discrete entity that exists outside of our minds.
God is first and foremost an ideal (the source, sustenance, and purpose of all that is). Whether or not we choose to imagine God as a "discrete entity" doesn't change that. I could choose to imagine justice as a blindfolded woman holding a set of scales, but that doesn't change the fact that justice is an ideal.
 

AppieB

Active Member
Yeah, I don't care. Dictionaries only record all the ways we use words. Including all the stupid ways we use them. They are not an arbiter of the logical use of words.
So tell me, what is de logical definition of the word: vulling
 
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