Israel, the Servant of God

[Harel13]

David, as a prophet, wrote psalms. The words he wrote express the mind of God, and are, possibly, intentionally ambiguous, allowing for both an 'earthly' and 'heavenly' interpretation, as is true of all parables.

In short, David was not resurrected after death and is not talking about his own death-and-resurrection. Thanks.

I was also wondering whether the 'lifting up' of Jonah uses the same Hebrew as the 'lifting up' of the serpent by Moses.

By Moses, different words are used. By Moses it's וישמיהו על נס - he put it upon a standard. By Jonah it's וישאוהו ויטילוהו. Different words, different meanings.

 

[Muffled]

I believe there is nothing there to say it is the nation of Israel, It most definitely points to Jesus and the new covenant.

 

[Muffled]

There are at least 4 different interpretations that the Jews have for the servant character in this text. None is reliant on anything to do with the gospels or Christianity.

I believe that is wishful thinking.

 

[Muffled]

This is John referring to the words of Jesus; and the words of Jesus are always rooted in the Law, the Prophets and the Writings.

So, in the case of a prophet not witnessing of himself, the source is to be found in Deuteronomy 13:1-5. Here it says that a prophet always speaks the words of God and never prophesies with the intention 'to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in'. A prophet, in other words, will not witness of themselves because this would lead people away from the LORD God. 'Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet'!

I believe however that Jesus is God in the flesh and God has no problem talking about Himself.

 

[rosends]

I believe that is wishful thinking.

which part? That there are different definitions? Or that none of the 4 is reliant on anything in the gospels or Christianity?

 

[rosends]

David, as a prophet, wrote psalms.

some of the psalms.

 

[2ndpillar]

Before responding to your comments, l would like to know which books of the New Testament you consider to be inspired of God, and which you consider to be the lies of Satan. It seems to me that you have a very personal view of which books are canonical.

There are additions and subtractions throughout the entire NT (Revelation 22:18-19), which would be the field that the good seed, the message of the son of man, and the tare seed, message of the devil, were both planted together (Matthew 13:24-25). Even the false prophet Paul's writing contains excerpts from Scripture. Even Matthew quoted the devil quoting from actual Scripture. But in the end, according to John 1:5, those of the darkness, did not comprehend the light.

 

[Redemptionsong]

some of the psalms.

Yes, some psalms. Psalm 110 was one of them.

 

[Redemptionsong]

In short, David was not resurrected after death and is not talking about his own death-and-resurrection. Thanks.

By Moses, different words are used. By Moses it's וישמיהו על נס - he put it upon a standard. By Jonah it's וישאוהו ויטילוהו. Different words, different meanings.

In short, there are parallels between David and 'David my servant' [Ezekiel 37:24]. The earthly can claim only temporal power, whereas the heavenly can claim eternal power and dominion.

The words meaning 'to lift' in Hebrew are different. That's fine, just a thought.

 

[Harel13]

In short, there are parallels between David and 'David my servant' [Ezekiel 37:24]. The earthly can claim only temporal power, whereas the heavenly can claim eternal power and dominion.

In short, David was not resurrected after death and is not talking about his own death-and-resurrection. Thanks.

 

[Redemptionsong]

There are additions and subtractions throughout the entire NT (Revelation 22:18-19), which would be the field that the good seed, the message of the son of man, and the tare seed, message of the devil, were both planted together (Matthew 13:24-25). Even the false prophet Paul's writing contains excerpts from Scripture. Even Matthew quoted the devil quoting from actual Scripture. But in the end, according to John 1:5, those of the darkness, did not comprehend the light.

Paul wrote the book of Romans, and if you think that Paul was a liar, it doesn't matter if there is other scripture quoted. It must still be an attempt to deceive. So, which books of the NT are written by liars, do you think?

 

[Redemptionsong]

In short, David was not resurrected after death and is not talking about his own death-and-resurrection. Thanks.

Do you believe that the resurrection of the dead has already occurred?

 

[Harel13]

Do you believe that the resurrection of the dead has already occurred?

Not yet.

 

[2ndpillar]

Paul wrote the book of Romans, and if you think that Paul was a liar, it doesn't matter if there is other scripture quoted. It must still be an attempt to deceive. So, which books of the NT are written by liars, do you think?

It is an apparent "lie" that Paul wrote "Romans". “I, Tertius, who wrote down this letter, greet you in the Lord” (Romans 16:22 )

Everything that Paul is said to have written is not a lie. Apparently he said that I am the foremost "sinner" of all (1 Timothy 1:15), which although a possible exaggeration, is somewhat on point. A better translation might have helped, in that he would be the leading sinner, as in that he is the foremost leading sinner, in that he leads the "most" sinners (Matthew 7:13-15). It is the dragon/devil/Satan who is the father of lies. Paul is just one of his sons, as are those who follow in his path (1 John 3:8). Paul's followers would not generally be listed as "liars", but as the "deceived" (Revelation 13:14) by way of the beast with two horns like a lamb, the Roman emperor Constantine, in which Paul was just one of the two horns like a lamb/Christlike. Peter would be another one of the "horns like a lamb". Peter was not a liar, per se, but just a "worthless shepherd" (Zechariah 11:17). Paul said he acted fraudulently to save the Jews (1 Corinthians 9:20). Is that lying, let the reader determine for themselves. That same deception occurred in 2 Corinthians 12:16, in which he acknowledges his deceit. Proverbs 12:17 " An honest witness tells the truth, but a false witness tells lies." (Matthew 23:15) and entangle the naive. In fairness to Paul, he was following the prophecy of Zechariah 11:7-10, whereas he was just being the shepherd/leader of the "flock doomed for slaughter", just as Judas was forecast as the "shepherd" to follow the money (Zechariah 11:12-13). The tare seed, gospel of lawlessness/grace, was of the devil (Matthew 13:39-41), and Paul was simply his messenger. Both wind up in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10).

 

[Redemptionsong]

Not yet.

Then how is that the Son of man has already ascended to heaven?

 

[Harel13]

Then how is that the Son of man has already ascended to heaven?

Uh...what?
a. What does that (I assume you're referring to Daniel 7) have to do with resurrection?
b. Who said that that happened already? Recall, it was a vision Daniel saw (again, assuming that you're referring to Daniel 7).

 

[Redemptionsong]

It is an apparent "lie" that Paul wrote "Romans". “I, Tertius, who wrote down this letter, greet you in the Lord” (Romans 16:22 )

Everything that Paul is said to have written is not a lie. Apparently he said that I am the foremost "sinner" of all (1 Timothy 1:15), which although a possible exaggeration, is somewhat on point. A better translation might have helped, in that he would be the leading sinner, as in that he is the foremost leading sinner, in that he leads the "most" sinners (Matthew 7:13-15). It is the dragon/devil/Satan who is the father of lies. Paul is just one of his sons, as are those who follow in his path (1 John 3:8). Paul's followers would not generally be listed as "liars", but as the "deceived" (Revelation 13:14) by way of the beast with two horns like a lamb, the Roman emperor Constantine, in which Paul was just one of the two horns like a lamb/Christlike. Peter would be another one of the "horns like a lamb". Peter was not a liar, per se, but just a "worthless shepherd" (Zechariah 11:17). Paul said he acted fraudulently to save the Jews (1 Corinthians 9:20). Is that lying, let the reader determine for themselves. That same deception occurred in 2 Corinthians 12:16, in which he acknowledges his deceit. Proverbs 12:17 " An honest witness tells the truth, but a false witness tells lies." (Matthew 23:15) and entangle the naive. In fairness to Paul, he was following the prophecy of Zechariah 11:7-10, whereas he was just being the shepherd/leader of the "flock doomed for slaughter", just as Judas was forecast as the "shepherd" to follow the money (Zechariah 11:12-13). The tare seed, gospel of lawlessness/grace, was of the devil (Matthew 13:39-41), and Paul was simply his messenger. Both wind up in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10).

I'm happy to accept that Paul did not pen all the words written in his name. If one reads the opening verses of Romans 1, it is clear that Paul is an apostle called by Christ, and that it is he who speaks the words that are recorded. It begins 'Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, .....[verse 7] To all that be in Rome, beloved of God...'

Allowing the scribe to anounce himself later [16:22] simply adds to the authenticity of the testimony.

In then suggesting that Paul was a sinner, even after receiving Jesus Christ as his Saviour [1 Timothy 1:15], is clearly an intentional misrepresentation. One only has to read the verse that follows to gain a better understanding
1 Timothy 1:16. 'Howbeit for this cause l obtained mercy , that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.'

In Psalm 89:14 it says, 'Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face'.

God's mercy and truth 'shall go before thy face'. Who do you think is the face of God?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Uh...what?
a. What does that (I assume you're referring to Daniel 7) have to do with resurrection?
b. Who said that that happened already? Recall, it was a vision Daniel saw (again, assuming that you're referring to Daniel 7).

Yes, I am referring to Daniel 7.

How can there be an ascension to heaven without there being a resurrection? The throne of God is incorruptible, and is inhabited by an incorruptible God.

When 'David my servant' [Ezekiel 37] becomes king, where does he come from? Heaven, or earth?

 

[Harel13]

How can there be an ascension to heaven without there being a resurrection?

Nope, still not getting what the two have to do with each other.

 

[rosends]

1. In Jewish understanding, a number of people "ascended" into heaven without dying, so how can there be an ascension without resurrection? For some people, easily.

2. In the biblical text there are people who are resurrected. Elisha brings a boy back to life as does Elijah. There is some resurrection. What does that signify?