Israel, the Servant of God

[Harel13]

I'm aware that the word 'soul' is used differently in different contexts.

The use, and meaning, of the word 'sheol' is crucial to understanding what happened to Jonah. From my research, the word 'sheol' is ALWAYS, without any exceptions, used as a place of the departed dead. Can you show me otherwise?

What you are both proposing is that Jonah was thrown overboard and swallowed by a fish, in which he remained alive for three days and nights. That not only sounds impossible, it also makes a nonsense of his being made a sacrifice by the other sailors. Why throw him overboard if a life is not required to calm the storm? Did God just want to give Jonah a good soaking?

You think Jonah was made into a sacrifice by the sailors? Nowhere is that written in the text. Jonah tells the sailors to throw him overboard because he is the cause of the storm. Throwing him overboard will move the storm away from the ship. Sacrifice? What do sacrifices have to do with this?

Moreover, frankly it's strange the you doubt the possibility of people surving inside a fish or an aquatic creature. Not only has it happened, but hey, many other miracles have happened as well in the Bible. Do you doubt the veracity of all of them?

 

[Harel13]

I could respond to this by quoting Psalm 16:10. 'For thou wilt not leave my soul in sheol; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.'

And that refutes what I wrote, how exactly? David is praising God that he won't put his soul in Sheol and leave him there. What's your point?

 

[rosends]

I'm aware that the word 'soul' is used differently in different contexts.

The use, and meaning, of the word 'sheol' is crucial to understanding what happened to Jonah. From my research, the word 'sheol' is ALWAYS, without any exceptions, used as a place of the departed dead. Can you show me otherwise?

First, the word means pit or depths. It was connected to the literal grave and then metaphorically to the place of death. Next, while it is a nickname for the idea of death, it isn't always used literally to mean "died" -- in 2 Sam 22:6 the idea of death is described poetically. Isaiah 38:15 also uses it to mention the idea of death. In Psalms 30:4 is David claiming to have been literally resurrected? Or is he talking symbolically about having been saved from the depths?

(If Jonah is to be taken literally then Job 7:9 must be wrong, and if literal then Psalms 6:6 is wrong.)

What you are both proposing is that Jonah was thrown overboard and swallowed by a fish, in which he remained alive for three days and nights. That not only sounds impossible, it also makes a nonsense of his being made a sacrifice by the other sailors.

Wait, which part sounds impossible? That God caused a storm which only abated when Jonah was thrown overboard? Or that a huge fish swallowed a man, alive? Or that the man, three days later emerged?

The part about resurrecting a man inside a fish doesn't sound impossible? Does your idea of "miracle" only stop and start and apply when you want it to?

And where does it say there is any sacrifice?

Why throw him overboard if a life is not required to calm the storm? Did God just want to give Jonah a good soaking?

A life to calm the storm? No, a person separated from the ship helping him escape his mission. (as Jonah says, "“Heave me overboard, and the sea will calm down for you; for I know that this terrible storm came upon you on my account.”")

Interestingly, the text of Jonah explicitly says that AFTERWARDS, the sailors gave sacrifices, uses the actual for word for sacrifice in relation to OTHER things, not Jonah.

 

[Redemptionsong]

You think Jonah was made into a sacrifice by the sailors? Nowhere is that written in the text. Jonah tells the sailors to throw him overboard because he is the cause of the storm. Throwing him overboard will move the storm away from the ship. Sacrifice? What do sacrifices have to do with this?

Moreover, frankly it's strange the you doubt the possibility of people surving inside a fish or an aquatic creature. Not only has it happened, but hey, many other miracles have happened as well in the Bible. Do you doubt the veracity of all of them?

Jonah offered himself because he knew that he was the cause of the storm. But, after the casting of lots, he asked the sailors to lift him up and throw him in. Why did he not just jump?

The sailors later cried to the LORD, 'let us not perish for this man's life, and lay not upon us innocent blood'.

So, having been thrown into the sea, Jonah is swallowed. Then, 'out of the belly of sheol cried l'. Why was Jonah 'in the belly of sheol' if he was not dead?

Then, in practically the same wording as Psalm 16:10, we have Jonah saying, 'yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption [the pit], O LORD my God.' [Jonah 2:6] How can his life be brought up from the pit, if he is not amongst the dead?

You might also compare Jonah 2:5 with Psalm 69:1,15.

 

[Redemptionsong]

First, the word means pit or depths. It was connected to the literal grave and then metaphorically to the place of death. Next, while it is a nickname for the idea of death, it isn't always used literally to mean "died" -- in 2 Sam 22:6 the idea of death is described poetically. Isaiah 38:15 also uses it to mention the idea of death. In Psalms 30:4 is David claiming to have been literally resurrected? Or is he talking symbolically about having been saved from the depths?

(If Jonah is to be taken literally then Job 7:9 must be wrong, and if literal then Psalms 6:6 is wrong.)

Wait, which part sounds impossible? That God caused a storm which only abated when Jonah was thrown overboard? Or that a huge fish swallowed a man, alive? Or that the man, three days later emerged?

The part about resurrecting a man inside a fish doesn't sound impossible? Does your idea of "miracle" only stop and start and apply when you want it to?

And where does it say there is any sacrifice?

A life to calm the storm? No, a person separated from the ship helping him escape his mission. (as Jonah says, "“Heave me overboard, and the sea will calm down for you; for I know that this terrible storm came upon you on my account.”")

Interestingly, the text of Jonah explicitly says that AFTERWARDS, the sailors gave sacrifices, uses the actual for word for sacrifice in relation to OTHER things, not Jonah.

It's interesting that you mention Job 7, because these musing are of a man doomed to corruption. He has no hope. He will descend into the grave and never come up again. Then, in verse 21 he asks, 'And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now l shall sleep in the dust'.

Jonah cries out as one described as 'innocent', and it appears that God was happy to pardon his transgressions (by changing corruption into incorruption).

 

[rosends]

It's interesting that you mention Job 7, because these musing are of a man doomed to corruption. He has no hope. He will descend into the grave and never come up again. Then, in verse 21 he asks, 'And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now l shall sleep in the dust'.

Jonah cries out as one described as 'innocent', and it appears that God was happy to pardon his transgressions (by changing corruption into incorruption).

Job 7:9 says that once down, you don't come back. You want to claim that Jonah went and came back. One of the texts must be wrong. Your choice.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Job 7:9 says that once down, you don't come back. You want to claim that Jonah went and came back. One of the texts must be wrong. Your choice.

I understand Job 7 to be about a man whose sin has not (at the point of speaking) been forgiven. The picture painted of Jonah, on the other hand, is of a man whose sin has been forgiven. One man appears to have been considered righteous in the eyes of God, whilst the other has not (at that particular point in time).

This distinction between the righteous receiving the crown of life, and the unrighteous receiving the punishment of eternal separation, seems quite consistent with other scriptures.

 

[rosends]

I understand Job 7 to be about a man whose sin has not (at the point of speaking) been forgiven. The picture painted of Jonah, on the other hand, is of a man whose sin has been forgiven. One man appears to have been considered righteous in the eyes of God, whilst the other has not (at that particular point in time).

This distinction between the righteous receiving the crown of life, and the unrighteous receiving the punishment of eternal separation, seems quite consistent with other scriptures.

So regardless of what the text says, you "understand" the texts differently because otherwise, your point will be disproven. That's an adorable "understanding" and I can see why you would have to come up with it. Of course, if you understood that, in the same way that the Hebrew word which translates to "soul" can be read as more than literal (as referring to life in general, for example), the Hebrew word which translates to "pit" and is a nickname/shorthand for death does not always exist literally to refer to actual death, but instead to suffering and despair, then you wouldn't have to invent these extra-textual "understandings" to help you out. Good luck.

 

[Redemptionsong]

There are two kingdoms, the kingdom which was manifested when Yeshua told his disciples go to the lost sheep of Israel, to heal the sick, raise the dead, to show that the kingdom of heaven is at hand, whereas it was power and spirit displayed by the disciples. The kingdom of God, whereas Judah and Ephraim/Israel will be joined and live on the land given to Jacob (Ezekiel 37), under the kingship of David, is behind the door, and has not been fulfilled (Matthew 24:29:31). Per Jeremiah 16:16, "I am going to send for many fishermen" to fish for Israel, the lost sheep of Israel, and later will send out hunters of men for them, to bring them to their own land, but first make them pay doubly for their iniquity, which is what Judah, the Jews, have been paying (Hosea 5), such as 6 million Jews lost in WWII, but the lost tribes of Israel, who Yeshua sent disciples to preach the kingdom, have not been restored to their own land with a new heart and spirit, whereas they will keep my ordinances (Ezekiel 36:24-29). There is no "majesty" of the "Christian" community. The US government's Roman Catholic leadership is behind the killing of the innocent unborn. That will lead to judgment for the whole country, or in words of Jeremiah 16:18, "I will first doubly repay their iniquity, and their sin. At the time the lost tribes are gathered out of the nations (Ezekiel 36:24), the nations/Gentiles will come and say, "Our fathers have inherited nothing but falsehood" (Jeremiah 16:19).

New American Standard Bible Jeremiah 16:16
“Behold, I am going to send for many fishermen,” declares the LORD, “and they will fish for them; and afterward I will send for many hunters, and they will hunt them from every mountain and every hill and from the clefts of the rocks.

Keep in mind that Shavuot is the 16th of May 2021, and Pentecost is the 23rd of May 2021. The two are not the same. The Council of Nicaea purposefully changed the date of the last supper, the Feast of Unleavened Bread, to a date corresponding to the Feast of Astarte (Easter), the queen of heaven, which is not the date of Passover, or the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which offsets your Pentecost date to be contingent on a pagan festival. These are the kind of abominations which will result in a double repay for Israel's iniquity. (Jeremiah 16:18).

How can there be two kingdoms but only one king?

 

[Redemptionsong]

So regardless of what the text says, you "understand" the texts differently because otherwise, your point will be disproven. That's an adorable "understanding" and I can see why you would have to come up with it. Of course, if you understood that, in the same way that the Hebrew word which translates to "soul" can be read as more than literal (as referring to life in general, for example), the Hebrew word which translates to "pit" and is a nickname/shorthand for death does not always exist literally to refer to actual death, but instead to suffering and despair, then you wouldn't have to invent these extra-textual "understandings" to help you out. Good luck.

The evidence for my understanding is found in the context of the passages to which we have referred, both in Jonah and in Job.
Job 8:20. 'Behold, God will not cast away a perfect man, neither will he help the evil doers:'

 

[rosends]

The evidence for my understanding is found in the context of the passages to which we have referred, both in Jonah and in Job.
Job 8:20. 'Behold, God will not cast away a perfect man, neither will he help the evil doers:'

So the context of what one character said in Job 7 is what a different character said in Job 8. Got it. And Job 8 says nothing about death or the grave or She'ol or anything, but that's your context also?

And your context has the mistranslations that allow you to think what you think...

Surely God does not despise the blameless;
He gives no support to evildoers.

 

[Redemptionsong]

So the context of what one character said in Job 7 is what a different character said in Job 8. Got it. And Job 8 says nothing about death or the grave or She'ol or anything, but that's your context also?

And your context has the mistranslations that allow you to think what you think...

Surely God does not despise the blameless;
He gives no support to evildoers.

Is the 'blameless' not also the 'innocent'? Which confirms that in the eyes of God Jonah was deemed righteous; whilst he who is not blameless, as the man of Job 7, requires forgiveness of iniquity. Thank you.

 

[2ndpillar]

How can there be two kingdoms but only one king?

One is based primarily on power and on the Spirit, whereas the other is based on Israel (Judah and Ephraim) given a new heart and spirit, and keeping God's ordinances (Ezekiel 36:27), and living on the land given to Jacob, with David being their king. One is primarily spiritual, and the other is primarily physical. Only after the sheep and goats are judged by God, will David be set over Israel (Ezekiel 34) & (Matthew 25:31) which only happens after the son of man comes in his glory, and gives the kingdom to his elect. This is timed for two days (2000 years) after "I go away", on the third day, when Judah and Ephraim "acknowledge their guilt" (Hosea 5:8 -6:7). Judah and Ephraim have not acknowledged their guilt, and the Gentiles go so far as adopt the serpents message (Genesis 3:4), to say they are saved from death, in spite they all have died or will die, and have no power to heal each other (James 5:16).

 

[Redemptionsong]

One is primarily spiritual, and the other is primarily physical. Only after the sheep and goats are judged by God, will David be set over Israel (Ezekiel 34) & (Matthew 25:31) which only happens after the son of man comes in his glory, and gives the kingdom to his elect. This is timed for two days (2000 years) after "I go away", on the third day, when Judah and Ephraim "acknowledge their guilt" (Hosea 5:8 -6:7).

This much (above) l agree with.

In Daniel 7:13,14 we read about the ascension of the Son of man to heaven. He is given everlasting dominion over the people of the earth. The question is, does he also have dominion in heaven? Philippians 2:9,10 confirms that His dominion includes things 'in heaven', 'in earth', and 'under the earth'! The conclusion must be that the Son of man has been given an everlasting kingdom that includes all things in heaven and earth.
Colossians 1:16. 'For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him'.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

This much (above) l agree with.

In Daniel 7:13,14 we read about the ascension of the Son of man to heaven.

Actually it appears to describe the reverse, the son of man descending from heaven.

 

[2ndpillar]

This much (above) l agree with.

In Daniel 7:13,14 we read about the ascension of the Son of man to heaven. He is given everlasting dominion over the people of the earth. The question is, does he also have dominion in heaven? Philippians 2:9,10 confirms that His dominion includes things 'in heaven', 'in earth', and 'under the earth'! The conclusion must be that the Son of man has been given an everlasting kingdom that includes all things in heaven and earth.
Colossians 1:16. 'For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him'.

Daniel 7:13-14 is about the "son of man" descending from heaven" such as stated in Matthew 24:29-31, which follows "immediately after the tribulation". The setting up of David as leader/king/shepherd (Ezekiel 34:22-24), follows the judgment (Joel 2:31-3:2), after which "Egypt will become a waste, and Edom will become a desolate wilderness, because of the violence done to the sons of Judah (Jews)....but Judah will become inhabited forever" .....and "Jerusalem will be holy, and strangers will pass through it no more.... the mountains will drip with sweet wine" (Joel 3:18-21. None of this has happened as of today, except Judah, the Jews, are just starting to turn the desert into a fruitful space, but they haven't acknowledged "their guilt" (Hosea 5:15), nor "return and seek the LORD their God and David their king.....in the last days" (Hosea 3:5). As of today, we are still under the thumb of the beast with 7 heads (Revelation 17), and the end doesn't come until all the heads are crushed at the same time (Daniel 2:45), and the kingdom set up on earth to "endure forever". Revelation was written during the period of the 6th head of the beast, and we are but in the era of the 8th head of the beast, one of the 7. (Revelation 17:11)

 

[Redemptionsong]

Actually it appears to describe the reverse, the son of man descending from heaven.

This is an important point to get clear. Was the Son of man seen ascending, or descending, by Daniel?

[JPS] Daniel 7:13.
'As I looked on, in the night vision,
One like a human being
Came with the clouds of heaven;
He reached the Ancient of Days
And was presented to Him'.

The 'Ancient of Days' is God. 'One like a human being' [or 'Son of man'] reached [or 'came to'] God.

Where is God? Is God [the 'Ancient of Days'] on earth, or in heaven?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Daniel 7:13-14 is about the "son of man" descending from heaven" such as stated in Matthew 24:29-31, which follows "immediately after the tribulation". The setting up of David as leader/king/shepherd (Ezekiel 34:22-24), follows the judgment (Joel 2:31-3:2), after which "Egypt will become a waste, and Edom will become a desolate wilderness, because of the violence done to the sons of Judah (Jews)....but Judah will become inhabited forever" .....and "Jerusalem will be holy, and strangers will pass through it no more.... the mountains will drip with sweet wine" (Joel 3:18-21. None of this has happened as of today, except Judah, the Jews, are just starting to turn the desert into a fruitful space, but they haven't acknowledged "their guilt" (Hosea 5:15), nor "return and seek the LORD their God and David their king.....in the last days" (Hosea 3:5). As of today, we are still under the thumb of the beast with 7 heads (Revelation 17), and the end doesn't come until all the heads are crushed at the same time (Daniel 2:45), and the kingdom set up on earth to "endure forever". Revelation was written during the period of the 6th head of the beast, and we are but in the era of the 8th head of the beast, one of the 7. (Revelation 17:11)

What I have said to IndigoChild applies here.

It is worth adding, if one looks at Daniel 7:9, that the 'Ancient of Days' is seen sitting on a throne. Is this throne on earth, or in heaven?

 

[2ndpillar]

What I have said to IndigoChild applies here.

It is worth adding, if one looks at Daniel 7:9, that the 'Ancient of Days' is seen sitting on a throne. Is this throne on earth, or in heaven?

The question is did Yeshua have to go to heaven, to sit at the right hand of God, in order to be able to send the Helper.(Holy Spirit) to earth, or did he stick his one way plane ticket into his pocket and just stay here, or use a round trip ticket immediately. The one thrown to the earth, at this time, would be the god of the church of Babylon, the dragon/devil (Revelation 12:9). He often goes by the name of Bel, which means Lord. The leader of the church of Babylon, the church of lawlessness, the church of the tares (Matthew 13:38-39), is the leader of the world, presently the 8th head of the beast (Revelation 17), and the dragon/Satan/devil, is his god, and the dragon gives his authority to the beast (Revelation 13:4), until the dragon is thrown into the pit during the millennium (Revelation 20:1-2). The paradigm of the book "1984", seems to be the paradigm of today's world.

 

[Redemptionsong]

The question is did Yeshua have to go to heaven, to sit at the right hand of God, in order to be able to send the Helper.(Holy Spirit) to earth, or did he stick his one way plane ticket into his pocket and just stay here, or use a round trip ticket immediately. The one thrown to the earth, at this time, would be the god of the church of Babylon, the dragon/devil (Revelation 12:9). He often goes by the name of Bel, which means Lord. The leader of the church of Babylon, the church of lawlessness, the church of the tares (Matthew 13:38-39), is the leader of the world, presently the 8th head of the beast (Revelation 17), and the dragon/Satan/devil, is his god, and the dragon gives his authority to the beast (Revelation 13:4), until the dragon is thrown into the pit during the millennium (Revelation 20:1-2). The paradigm of the book "1984", seems to be the paradigm of today's world.

It would have been a hard slog for an individual servant to do the job of reaching the four corners of the earth with the Gospel. After rejection by 'his own' chosen nation, God in Christ opted for an unexpected way of reaching the world with the Gospel; through 'the Church'. That is why the Lord has a 'body' to do His work on earth. Scripture tells us that Jesus Christ ascended to sit at the right hand of His Father in heaven [Psalm 110:1], and it's from there that he makes his 'enemies his footstool'. He does this by endowing his followers with the power, the Holy Spirit, to overcome the enemy.

Hebrews 10:12,13. 'But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool'.

In 2 Peter 3:8,9 we have an explanation for the two thousand year delay in making a return to earth.
'But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance'.

The reason given for the delay in Christ's return to earth is because God is long-suffering, 'not willing that any should perish'. God wants to see the Gospel of grace preached throughout the world. Only then will the Lord return, first to rapture the saints, and then to bring judgement upon the earth.

Matthew 24:30. 'And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.'

When compared with Daniel 7:13, one can see that a very important difference exists between the two descriptions. In Daniel 7:13, the Son of man has no 'power and great glory' when he 'came to the Ancient of Days', yet, when he returns to earth it is with 'power and great glory'!