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Israel, the Servant of God

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
OK, so according to that quote, "Bethlehem of Ephrath is the least among clans, and not a city. So there is no reason to believe, according to the translation you chose, that the future messiah will come from a particular city. Thank you.


The gap is, according to some, hinted to in the text, actually. Nothing in this mentions the "suffering servant" maybe because this is talking about the messiah.

Did you not read verse 10? Though it was possibly also idolatry.
What are you suggesting? That Bethlehem was a clan and not a place? It was clearly the place where the clan was located. Jesse and his clan came from Bethlehem, a place of habitation located in Ephratah. David was born in Bethlehem, and it follows the script that 'My servant David' will also be born there. Hence the prophecy in Micah 5:2.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend
Isaiah 41:8
Yes, you are rightly pointing out that Israel, as descendants of Abraham, are the servant of God. As descendants of Abraham, the servant walks by faith.

So, who is it that Israel serves? Jeremiah 30:9 says, 'But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom l will raise unto them'.

Scripture tells us that lsrael will have a leader, governor, and king called 'David'. He, also, is the servant of God.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Whereas there may well be "Christians" among the lost tribes of Israel, they apparently have not had My Law written in their hearts, and as a part of Jacob, have not as yet experienced "Jacob's distress" (Jeremiah 30:7), whereas Israel will be "chastened justly" (Jeremiah 30:11), and the nations/Gentiles destroyed. After that, Israel will be gathered out of the nations and joined to Judah on the land given to Jacob under My servant David (Ezekiel 36 &37). At this time, only Judah lives on the land given to Jacob, and the lost tribes remain lost, and do not at this time keep my ordinances (Ezekiel 36:26-27). The nations have yet to be all crushed at the same time, and replaced by the kingdom (Daniel 2:44-45). The Gentiles seem to have followed the path of the tare seed, the road of lawlessness/wickedness, and are looking at the furnace of fire (Matthew 13:25 & 49-50).
Yes, but one has to distinguish between the Gentiles who form a part of the body of Christ, and the Gentiles who do not. The nations that come against lsrael are not the body of Christ.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
The confusion is cleared up by understanding the resurrection is the new Covenant. Jesus is the beginning the firstborn from the dead. This is why he is the real Israel. The one that lives forever. Jacob died but in Jesus he will live again.

The new covenant(resurrection power) begins within through the baptism of the holy Spirit which is the same Spirit that raised Jesus back to life.
Can one receive the Holy Spirit without first believing in Jesus as Saviour?
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
What are you suggesting?
Me? You chose the translation and it explains the name as "least of the clans" (which is actually what the Hebrew says).
That Bethlehem was a clan and not a place?
No one says it wasn't a place, nor that it wasn't the place from which David came, but then the verse refers to, quite explicitly, the clan which developed after David was born there, which is known as the "least" (because of heritage reasons)

"אתה משפחת בית דוד הבא מבית לחם מישי בית הלחמי מהראוי היה שתהיה הצעיר והנבזה בכל שרי יהודה וזהו לפי שבאת מרות המואביה"
It was clearly the place where the clan was located. Jesse and his clan came from Bethlehem, a place of habitation located in Ephratah. David was born in Bethlehem,
Yes, all the past facts.
and it follows the script that 'My servant David' will also be born there. Hence the prophecy in Micah 5:2.
No, there is no "script" and there is no reason to expect that anyone in the future, who comes from the clan also has to come from the exact place where the clan started.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Me? You chose the translation and it explains the name as "least of the clans" (which is actually what the Hebrew says).

No one says it wasn't a place, nor that it wasn't the place from which David came, but then the verse refers to, quite explicitly, the clan which developed after David was born there, which is known as the "least" (because of heritage reasons)

"אתה משפחת בית דוד הבא מבית לחם מישי בית הלחמי מהראוי היה שתהיה הצעיר והנבזה בכל שרי יהודה וזהו לפי שבאת מרות המואביה"

Yes, all the past facts.

No, there is no "script" and there is no reason to expect that anyone in the future, who comes from the clan also has to come from the exact place where the clan started.
Well, you may argue that Micah 5:2 is not a Messianically applied verse, but according to Edersheim's listing of Messianically applied passages from rabbinic writings it's applied 'in the Targum, in the Pirqe de R. Eliez.c.3, and by later Rabbis'.

And whether you believe in Jesus or not, the Gospels provide historical insights into the thinking of the Jews at the time. In John 7:40-42 it says, 'Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.
Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee?
Hath not the scriptures said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?'

So, nearly two thousand years ago there were Jews who understood that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Well, you may argue that Micah 5:2 is not a Messianically applied verse, but according to Edersheim's listing of Messianically applied passages from rabbinic writings it's applied 'in the Targum, in the Pirqe de R. Eliez.c.3, and by later Rabbis'.
In post #30 I believe I agreed that it is speaking of a future messiah, so attributing a contrary position to me is intellectually dishonest.
And whether you believe in Jesus or not, the Gospels provide historical insights into the thinking of the Jews at the time.
And the Harry Potter series gives insight into non-magical people. Isn't agendized fiction grand?

So, nearly two thousand years ago there were Jews who understood that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem.
So nearly 2000 years ago, people were wrong also? Or even, 2000 years ago, someone invented a text and assigned a statement to nameless people to bolster his own erroneous claims? Who woulda thunk it?
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Yes, but one has to distinguish between the Gentiles who form a part of the body of Christ, and the Gentiles who do not. The nations that come against lsrael are not the body of Christ.

Yes, but one has to distinguish between the Gentiles who form a part of the body of Christ, and the Gentiles who do not. The nations that come against lsrael are not the body of Christ.

It is "all the nations" which come up against Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:1-2). When I restore the "fortunes of Judah, I will gather all the nations and bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat (valley of judgment), and enter into judgment with them there" (Joel 3:1-2). It is at that time (Daniel 2:44-45), when the nations are crushed, and then Israel is gathered out of the nations and joined to Judah (Ezekiel 36:24). That has not happened as of yet. And for any of the lost tribes (the house of Israel), who are among the nations, they are told to "come out o her", their religion of Babylon (Christianity), or suffer her plagues (Revelation 18:4). As for the false prophet Paul's "body of Christ", the temple/sanctuary of God, will be the combined house of Judah and Israel (Ezekiel 37:28), living on the land of Jacob, with David being their king. That hasn't happened. God and David are two different entities. All you have now is the tare seed of the devil, and the good seed of the son of man, with their subsequent followers, with their judgment behind the door.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
Can one receive the Holy Spirit without first believing in Jesus as Saviour?
No, and everyone who died already believes in Jesus even those who were imprisoned. (1 Peter 3:19) They know he is the resurrection. (John 11:25) So, Jacob, Abraham etc. all wait with Jesus for the redemption of their bodies. Jesus came not just to be Savior for us now; but he is the Savior of all those who came before and were obedient to the Law of Moses. Even David calls him Lord. (Matthew 22:43) So then they will all believe in Jesus and call him Lord.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
It is "all the nations" which come up against Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:1-2). When I restore the "fortunes of Judah, I will gather all the nations and bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat (valley of judgment), and enter into judgment with them there" (Joel 3:1-2). It is at that time (Daniel 2:44-45), when the nations are crushed, and then Israel is gathered out of the nations and joined to Judah (Ezekiel 36:24). That has not happened as of yet. And for any of the lost tribes (the house of Israel), who are among the nations, they are told to "come out o her", their religion of Babylon (Christianity), or suffer her plagues (Revelation 18:4). As for the false prophet Paul's "body of Christ", the temple/sanctuary of God, will be the combined house of Judah and Israel (Ezekiel 37:28), living on the land of Jacob, with David being their king. That hasn't happened. God and David are two different entities. All you have now is the tare seed of the devil, and the good seed of the son of man, with their subsequent followers, with their judgment behind the door.
The things that you interpret here have nothing to do with the Church. You may have noticed in your reading of the Tanakh, and the NT, that the Church Age is a 'mystery', hidden from view in the Hebrew scriptures. There are hints of this Age, but nothing explicit.

Paul, the chosen apostle of Jesus, helps to explain the mystery, and the relationship between those living under law and those under grace.

To my understanding, the body of Christ, the Church, are taken off the earth before the nations attack lsrael and meet their fate. This resurrection event is also known as the 'rapture of the saints'.

You say that God and 'David' are two different entities, but that does not explain the role of God's Spirit in making 'David' the Messiah. Nor does it explain the role of the Messiah, the Son of God, in the salvation of Israel.

Who do you think is being 'mourned' in Zechariah 12:11?
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
No, and everyone who died already believes in Jesus even those who were imprisoned. (1 Peter 3:19) They know he is the resurrection. (John 11:25) So, Jacob, Abraham etc. all wait with Jesus for the redemption of their bodies. Jesus came not just to be Savior for us now; but he is the Savior of all those who came before and were obedient to the Law of Moses. Even David calls him Lord. (Matthew 22:43) So then they will all believe in Jesus and call him Lord.
I agree with much of what you say here, but was there anyone totally obedient to the Law of Moses? Can a man be a sinner and still fulfil the Law?
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Yes, you are rightly pointing out that Israel, as descendants of Abraham, are the servant of God. As descendants of Abraham, the servant walks by faith.
Sometimes yes, sometimes now. Sometimes Israel had good kings and was obedient, other times it had bad kings and was disobedient. Individual Jew vary, some being obedient, and others not. But there has always been a faithfully obedient remnant, and this is the Israel that is the servant.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
I agree with much of what you say here, but was there anyone totally obedient to the Law of Moses? Can a man be a sinner and still fulfil the Law?
Exactly, that's why they needed Jesus also. Psalm 51 is a good example of how David really relied on Jesus for salvation. So once they did their best to obey the law and invariably came up short they had to be forgiven. David says in Psalm 51 that God didn't desire sacrifice or else he would give it. That's because there was no sacrifice provided in the Law of Moses that would cover the sins David had done. But God does have a sacrifice which covers all those sins that the Law cannot forgive. We know the sacrifice of God is Jesus Christ who is called Israel and is the fulfillment of Isaiah 53.

So there is a riddle in the Law which is why would God demand the blood of animals for small sins and ritual impurities but just forgive greater sins like murder and adultery without any sacrifice? The answer to that riddle is that God himself would provide a sacrifice; Jesus. So Jesus is really the offering for their sins and for those who come after.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I agree with much of what you say here, but was there anyone totally obedient to the Law of Moses? Can a man be a sinner and still fulfil the Law?
The standard was never being "totally" obedient.

Proverbs 24:16,
For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
The standard was never being "totally" obedient.

Proverbs 24:16,
For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.
Never? Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden for one single sin. At that time total obedience was apparently required.

The Law of Moses provided sacrifices for small sins and ritual impurity. So let's be clear about that. God demanded the life of innocent animals for small sins but askes for no sacrifice for greater sins. The only way that makes sense is if Jesus Christ is the sacrifice for those greater sins. Because great sins require a great sacrifice. No animal is sufficient. But this way God's nature remains consistent. He doesn't just demand blood for sin sometimes but all the time.

Why does God require blood for sins? He says in the Torah. The life is in the blood. (Lev 17:11) If sin results in death (Ezekiel 3:18) then shedding blood is the only way to atone for it. So even though God clearly forgives sins like in Ezekiel 3:18. He still does so because he has a sufficient sacrifice.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Never? Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden for one single sin. At that time total obedience was apparently required.

The Law of Moses provided sacrifices for small sins and ritual impurity. So let's be clear about that. God demanded the life of innocent animals for small sins but askes for no sacrifice for greater sins. The only way that makes sense is if Jesus Christ is the sacrifice for those greater sins. Because great sins require a great sacrifice. No animal is sufficient. But this way God's nature remains consistent. He doesn't just demand blood for sin sometimes but all the time.

Why does God require blood for sins? He says in the Torah. The life is in the blood. (Lev 17:11) If sin results in death (Ezekiel 3:18) then shedding blood is the only way to atone for it. So even though God clearly forgives sins like in Ezekiel 3:18. He still does so because he has a sufficient sacrifice.
Never? Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden for one single sin. At that time total obedience was apparently required.
We aren't talking about Adam and Eve. We are talking about obedience to 613 laws. So tell me, do you just not agree iwth Proverbs 24:16?

The Law of Moses provided sacrifices for small sins and ritual impurity.
Let's be clear. Sin offerings were only for unintentional sins. If you sinned on purpose, the you had to repent. No sacrifice atoned for intentional sins.

But none of this is even related to your original point. As I showed you, perfect observance of the 613 is not needed to be considered a good person.

Why does God require blood for sins?
He doesn't. At least, not in th Tanakh. The idea that blood is necessary is a New Testament idea only.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Proverbs 24:16,
For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

We are talking about obedience to 613 laws.

The numbers to me are the fascinating part of these passages.

The seven times comes up in the Bible a few times, also it appears to be prophecy.

To me the only Just Man is the Prophet and it is them that are raised up again, and it is humanity that fall into mischief. So that passage offers a lot to me that would need study of many other aspects of seven times.

The 613 laws has always been of interest as well and I see numbers have great meanings. That sums to 9.

Nine
http://data:image/svg+xml;base64,PHN2ZyBoZWlnaHQ9JzE4NScgd2lkdGg9JzE1NicgeG1sbnM9J2h0dHA6Ly93d3cudzMub3JnLzIwMDAvc3ZnJyB2ZXJzaW9uPScxLjEnLz4=
Tehshah [f.], teeshah [m.] Last and largest single digit. Signifies finality, judgment, harvest, fruitfulness, the womb, duality (good/evil), concealment, truth, loving-kindness, fruit of the Spirit, turning to look upon/gaze, hour of prayer, etc. When nine reveals what it conceals inside, there is fruitfulness, multiplication, and the building of the House.

To me that has many a deep significance as well.

All the best, Regards Tony
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Never? Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden for one single sin. At that time total obedience was apparently required.
Well, they only had one law so singular obedience was the same as total obedience.
The only way that makes sense is if Jesus Christ is the sacrifice for those greater sins.
No, that makes no sense at all. Human sacrifice doesn't do anything more than disgust God.
Because great sins require a great sacrifice. No animal is sufficient.
Neither is the death of another person. People die for their own sins.

He says in the Torah. The life is in the blood. (Lev 17:11)
In a statement stating that we shouldn't EAT blood.
 
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