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Question about John 5:25 and John 5:28-29.Dead people hear Jesus's voice while still dead?

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
I think you have the basic idea right. But your use of the word immortal is wrong. Nothing is immortal except God. God cannot ever die or be destroyed. Souls or spirits or bodies or people, whatever you want to call them, are not immortal. They can come to an end of their lives. Notice I did not say die. They will no longer exist. In my book that is the same as being dead. The rest of what you say actually makes a lot of sense. I just don't agree with the use of the word immortal. I do not believe the soul or spirit or anything else is immortal.
What is your definition of the word, ‘Immortal’?
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
There's lots of things in the Bible that aren't spelled out in the exact wording we use today. We are told that the soul lives on somewhere. How can it do this if it's mortal?
Jesus and the thief on the cross experienced physical death, but Jesus told the thief, “Today you will be with me in paradise.” The word used for “paradise” is the Greek word, “paradeisos”... the same word that Paul uses to describe heaven in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4.

At the Transfiguration, Jesus talks to Elijah and Moses. People who died long before Jesus was born, so how could this be true unless they exist as immortal souls, and not simply as physical bodies?

"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

1 Corinthians 15:53
Jesus did not say, ‘You will be with in paradise today’ or ‘today you will be with me in paradise’.

Those are words WRONGLY TAUGHT TO PEOPLE by Trinitarians…. And that is because they want to say that Jesus never died!!!

Think carefully about it. No one is raised from the dead until after their judgement BY Jesus AT the end of time.

But there are those who are already judged as worthy for the kingdom of God. These are called THE ELECT.

The thief (called, ironically, the Good thief!!) was absolved of his sins by Jesus almost as he died therefore he did not commit any further sin: he was therefore ‘sinless’ in the eyes of God

The ‘good thief’ was not one of the Elect therefore he would only be raised up at the SECOND RESURRECTION. Jesus will call him forward and say, “You have no sin… welcome to the kingdom - enter MY paradise, my Son!”

Paradise is the created world that God prophesied the world would be from the beginning of time - what he commanded Adam to make all over from the sample garden of Eden.

It is therefore impossible that anyone should rise from the dead THAT DAY and be in Paradise before Jesus who was dead for three days from the day he spoke the supposed words!!!

Please…. Jesus said: ‘I TELL TOU THIS DAY…. You will be with me in paradise’.

Explaining: ‘This very day I say to you, I am the resurrection and the life. I have been given the task of judging the world. Those who I find guilty will go to destruction - but those I deem sinless or worthy at least I will grant everlasting life. You, at this moment, are guiltless, sinless, THEREFORE when I judge you at the end of time YOU WILL BE JUDGED WORTHY and be granted life in paradise with me!’

Try understanding the trinitarian version makes no sense at all….!! Arguments is all raises:
  1. How can anyone be in paradise on the say jesus died ahead of Jesus who was dead for three days?
  2. If Jesus was dead fur three days how was he preaching to the dead of Noah’s era?
  3. Jesus was the first raised from the dead… how did the thief enter paradise on the same day Jesus died?
See, and there is no answer but arguments - because the trinitarian wants to say Jesus was God and couldn’t die… yet we commemorate Jesus’ death yearly: isn’t that an irony….!!! He didn’t did but we commemorate his dying to pay the penalty for the sin of the world!!!! So if he didn’t die how was the penalty paid ….
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Jesus did not say, ‘You will be with in paradise today’ or ‘today you will be with me in paradise’.

Those are words WRONGLY TAUGHT TO PEOPLE by Trinitarians…. And that is because they want to say that Jesus never died!!!

Think carefully about it. No one is raised from the dead until after their judgement BY Jesus AT the end of time.

But there are those who are already judged as worthy for the kingdom of God. These are called THE ELECT.

The thief (called, ironically, the Good thief!!) was absolved of his sins by Jesus almost as he died therefore he did not commit any further sin: he was therefore ‘sinless’ in the eyes of God

The ‘good thief’ was not one of the Elect therefore he would only be raised up at the SECOND RESURRECTION. Jesus will call him forward and say, “You have no sin… welcome to the kingdom - enter MY paradise, my Son!”

Paradise is the created world that God prophesied the world would be from the beginning of time - what he commanded Adam to make all over from the sample garden of Eden.

It is therefore impossible that anyone should rise from the dead THAT DAY and be in Paradise before Jesus who was dead for three days from the day he spoke the supposed words!!!

Please…. Jesus said: ‘I TELL TOU THIS DAY…. You will be with me in paradise’.

Explaining: ‘This very day I say to you, I am the resurrection and the life. I have been given the task of judging the world. Those who I find guilty will go to destruction - but those I deem sinless or worthy at least I will grant everlasting life. You, at this moment, are guiltless, sinless, THEREFORE when I judge you at the end of time YOU WILL BE JUDGED WORTHY and be granted life in paradise with me!’

Try understanding the trinitarian version makes no sense at all….!! Arguments is all raises:
  1. How can anyone be in paradise on the say jesus died ahead of Jesus who was dead for three days?
  2. If Jesus was dead fur three days how was he preaching to the dead of Noah’s era?
  3. Jesus was the first raised from the dead… how did the thief enter paradise on the same day Jesus died?
See, and there is no answer but arguments - because the trinitarian wants to say Jesus was God and couldn’t die… yet we commemorate Jesus’ death yearly: isn’t that an irony….!!! He didn’t did but we commemorate his dying to pay the penalty for the sin of the world!!!! So if he didn’t die how was the penalty paid ….
1. Because Jesus was dead bodily..his soul never died, just as our souls never die.
2.The thief was in heaven with Jesus that day. Jesus' human body was still in the tomb
3. If Jesus preached to the souls in Hades, which is somewhat debatable, it had to be sometime within the 3 days.
Third question, see answer #2.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
There's lots of things in the Bible that aren't spelled out in the exact wording we use today. We are told that the soul lives on somewhere. How can it do this if it's mortal?
Jesus and the thief on the cross experienced physical death, but Jesus told the thief, “Today you will be with me in paradise.” The word used for “paradise” is the Greek word, “paradeisos”... the same word that Paul uses to describe heaven in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4.

At the Transfiguration, Jesus talks to Elijah and Moses. People who died long before Jesus was born, so how could this be true unless they exist as immortal souls, and not simply as physical bodies?

"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

1 Corinthians 15:53
Thank you so much. I really like your last line. This mortal must put on immortality. That means that the mortal is NOT automatically immortal but must put on immortality. Most people say they have an immortal soul. But this verse is saying they do not have an immortal soul but must do something to put on that immortallity. The spirit can become immortal but it is not automatically immortal. Thanks for proving my point.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
What is your definition of the word, ‘Immortal’?
Immortal means not subject to death. But if something is destroyed it is dead. Maybe it did not die of natural causes but it is still dead. If a person falls into a vat of burning oil and is burned to ashes, you could say they did not die but they are still dead.If God destroys a spirit you might say it did not die but it is still dead. And if it is dead then it was not immortal. Other than this, I agree with most of what you say. But I believe nothing is immortal except God and can find no Bible verse that says anything is immortal except God. We are realyy not far apart in our beliefs as it seems. Just the use of the word immortal.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Thank you so much. I really like your last line. This mortal must put on immortality. That means that the mortal is NOT automatically immortal but must put on immortality. Most people say they have an immortal soul. But this verse is saying they do not have an immortal soul but must do something to put on that immortallity. The spirit can become immortal but it is not automatically immortal. Thanks for proving my point.
Did you perhaps read the verse in context?
I'm not sure what your view is, but we all will be immortal when we die. In other words the body died, but the soul doesn't. You can argue about soul sleep if you like, but either way it doesn't die.

50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—
in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

So it's not us doing anything it's God changing us, whether we are dead or alive at that time.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Oh boy!!!

Do you realise you just turned all that I said on its head…

I said that:
  1. the Spirit cannot DIE…
  2. The Spirit is therefore immortal
  3. But even an IMMortal spirit can be DESTROYED by the power of its creator
You turned all that upside down and then claim I am wrong. It is evident that if something that is destroyed must also be dead…. But that is not the same as something being dead is also destroyed.

It seems you purposely - or let’s just say, accidentally - swapped the premises around and got the wrong answer : You turned a simple 2+2=4 into 4+2=2 and then claimed that I said that….!!

No, I did not.

I asked if you were confused between being Dead and being Destroyed…. I see that indeed you are!!

‘Dead’ is a human concept. God does not see ‘Dead’ persons because he created the spirit of the person and knows that when the purpose is (let’s say, ‘passed’) in this life their spirit is still alive but sleeping, inert, WITH HIM. The spirit CANNOT INTERACT in the created world not in the spirit world so it is INACTIVE in all senses! Literally. It cannot act and cannot perceive … perception is through the body that it had occupied : hearing, feeling, seeing, smelling, tasting, etc.

Resurrection is where God replaces that dormant spirit back into a body wherein the spirit can now interact in the created world.

But though man cannot destroy that spirit resting in Gods grace… if God desired, HE, the creator, could DESTROY the spirit. He doesn’t do that because:
  • ‘My Father judges no one but has out all judgement into the hands of the Son!’
Here, Jesus is given the power of God and the privilege of judging all people and the angels at the end of time. It is Jesus, now with temporary use of the power of God, who judges and decides who among all entities will be SAVED INTK EVERLASTING LIFE of Will be ETERNALLY DESTROYED!!

So, those judged as worthy for the kingdom of God will be resurrected from the dead state back into a living state.
Seems we don't have the same understanding of immortality.
I understand immortality to mean - cannot die / indestructibility / imperishable.

The only one described that way in the Bible is Jehovah God himself. - Psalms 90:1, 2; Habakkuk 1:12
However, God promised to endow faithful annointed sons with this possession. That would be the resurrected son of God, and those resurrected to heavenly life.
Romans 6:9 ; Hebrews 7:16, 17 ; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 ; Revelation 1:17, 18 ;

All faithful ones who are not annointed as son of God, to heavenly life, are promised eternal life - not immortality... (just like the angels who are not immortal, but can be destroyed).
They have everlasting life as mortals - not immortals.

These faithful ones live on earth... in the flesh. Not as spirit beings.
They can die or be destroyed, but an immortal being cannot die or be destroyed. They are indestructible. They become like God, in that respect.

The spirit that keeps man alive is not an entity, but the spirit of God. It issues from him, and returns to him, not as a living being, but as spirit of God.
God did not create it. It is part of him. (Psalm 104:29, 30)

That's how I understand it.
I guess we are not seeing eye to eye on this one. That's okay. We aren't going to be united in the same line of thought if we are not taught from the same source.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
Did you perhaps read the verse in context?
I'm not sure what your view is, but we all will be immortal when we die. In other words the body died, but the soul doesn't. You can argue about soul sleep if you like, but either way it doesn't die.

50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—
in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

So it's not us doing anything it's God changing us, whether we are dead or alive at that time.
Yes, all dead people will be raised from their graves when Christ returns. But you miss what happens next. All will be judged and those not worthy will be cast into the lake of fire. And what does fire do? It destroys things. The wicked will be destroyed. Only those who are worthy will gain immortality. Nothing in the Bible says that everyone will be immortal. It says the wicked will be destroyed and is certainly not immortality. I repeat if you can find one verse that says everyone will be immortal or all souls are immortal or anything like that I will be happy to see it. But it actually says the soul that sins will die. And anything that can die is not immortal.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Yes, all dead people will be raised from their graves when Christ returns. But you miss what happens next. All will be judged and those not worthy will be cast into the lake of fire. And what does fire do? It destroys things. The wicked will be destroyed. Only those who are worthy will gain immortality. Nothing in the Bible says that everyone will be immortal. It says the wicked will be destroyed and is certainly not immortality. I repeat if you can find one verse that says everyone will be immortal or all souls are immortal or anything like that I will be happy to see it. But it actually says the soul that sins will die. And anything that can die is not immortal.
What do you do with the rich man and Lazareth story? Did Jesus really just make up a whole realm of the afterlife just for a good story? Methinks he was correcting the Jewish view of the afterlife.
Notice that there's no waiting until the resurrection, they immediately go to paradise or hades. And the rich man is still alive there not destroyed.
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
1. Because Jesus was dead bodily..his soul never died, just as our souls never die.
2.The thief was in heaven with Jesus that day. Jesus' human body was still in the tomb
3. If Jesus preached to the souls in Hades, which is somewhat debatable, it had to be sometime within the 3 days.
Third question, see answer #2.
Paradise is not Heaven…. The souls of the dead are DORMANT resting with GOD. Yes, Jesus’ soul (his Spirit - not his body) was ALSO resting with God:
  • ‘Father, into thy hands I commit my SPIRIT!’
It could hardly be that Jesus commits his spirit to God and then was walking around in history teaching the souls of Noah’s time before the last was given… no! That is one of this trinitarian additions added to make out that Jesus wasn’t dead…
That really stupid claim: ‘Only his body was dead !!!’ Jesus’ body and spirit is no different to any other persons EXCEPT that Jesus had no sin. So just as every one who does, so if was with Jesus: The body is unsupported by the spirit and do starts on a journey of decay… the spirit goes to rest in dormancy with God.

On the third say GOD replaced Jesus’ spirit back into the not yet decayed body of Jesus and the body was made a living body again.

Heaven! The last place for the righteous is PARADISE…. Not Heaven!

Heaven is for the ELECT ‘whom were chosen from before the foundation of the world’.

Does no one know they’re scriptures???
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
What do you do with the rich man and Lazareth story? Did Jesus really just make up a whole realm of the afterlife just for a good story? Methinks he was correcting the Jewish view of the afterlife.
Notice that there's no waiting until the resurrection, they immediately go to paradise or hades. And the rich man is still alive there not destroyed.
This is an ALLEGORY…

It is not a REALITY…

What’s up with you guys???
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Thank you so much. I really like your last line. This mortal must put on immortality. That means that the mortal is NOT automatically immortal but must put on immortality. Most people say they have an immortal soul. But this verse is saying they do not have an immortal soul but must do something to put on that immortallity. The spirit can become immortal but it is not automatically immortal. Thanks for proving my point.
It is true that there is no such thing as an immortal SOUL… this is very bad church teaching.

The confusion is that the SPIRIT of a person is an ever living spirit UNLESS IT IS DESTROYED BY THE POWER OF GOD!

The body without the spirit is nothing… it can do nothing of itself and therefore decays…. We all know that. But what happens to the spirit of the dead… it is not DEAD!!! It cannot DIE…. But it can be destroyed!!!

Have you not followed the explanation in these posts.

Definition: Immortal… Not capable of DYING!!!!

Just because it cannot DIE does not mean it Cannot be DESTROYED BY GOD.

Reality check: How is the spirit of EVIL done away with at the end of time?

Jesus DESTROYS IT…

Do you get it yet…

Even IMMORTAL can be DESTROYED BY ITS MAKER!!

Satan cannot DIE!!!!!! But he can be DESTROYED!

Evil spirit is created by SATAN… GOD CREATED ‘the Angel who BECAME a Satan’…

Only GOD can destroy Satan and the evil spirits Satan created!
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Paradise is not Heaven…. The souls of the dead are DORMANT resting with GOD. Yes, Jesus’ soul (his Spirit - not his body) was ALSO resting with God:
  • ‘Father, into thy hands I commit my SPIRIT!’
It could hardly be that Jesus commits his spirit to God and then was walking around in history teaching the souls of Noah’s time before the last was given… no! That is one of this trinitarian additions added to make out that Jesus wasn’t dead…
That really stupid claim: ‘Only his body was dead !!!’ Jesus’ body and spirit is no different to any other persons EXCEPT that Jesus had no sin. So just as every one who does, so if was with Jesus: The body is unsupported by the spirit and do starts on a journey of decay… the spirit goes to rest in dormancy with God.

On the third say GOD replaced Jesus’ spirit back into the not yet decayed body of Jesus and the body was made a living body again.

Heaven! The last place for the righteous is PARADISE…. Not Heaven!

Heaven is for the ELECT ‘whom were chosen from before the foundation of the world’.

Does no one know they’re scriptures???
Heaven and Paradise are the same place.. in the presence of God. It really doesn't matter what the actual location is, if it even is a location as we think of it. Now, yes, heaven will eventually be on earth, but it's not yet. There's nothing that says spirits with God has to do nothing but rest and Jesus could certainly go into hades whenever he wanted...he was God you know. Right on the third day Jesus' soul re entered his body, but it was then his glorified body.
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Heaven and Paradise are the same place.. in the presence of God. It really doesn't matter what the actual location is, if it even is a location as we think of it. Now, yes, heaven will eventually be on earth, but it's not yet. There's nothing that says spirits with God has to do nothing but rest and Jesus could certainly go into hades whenever he wanted...he was God you know. Right on the third day Jesus' soul re entered his body, but it was then his glorified body.
Ok, so you are deluded… I understand… this is a common problem with none believers!

I won’t trouble you more as it would be a waste of time…

Just pointing this out though:
  • Heaven is a spirit world
  • Paradise is an earthly (flesh) world
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
So Jesus confused everyone and us by creating a bogus reality just to make a point? I don't think so.
You must be one of them who walked away after Jesus told a parable - not understand the spiritual message behind it.

Oh boy! What am I doing among these nuance-heads calling themselves Christians!!! Or maybe you don’t!!!

The story of JOB in the O.T. is an allegory. It is designed to make a point using common themes known to those of the time… it is not meant to be REAL!!!!

So also was the story of the rich and the poor man! It’s not to say there wasn’t ever a rich and poor man wherein the rich man mistreated the poor man… it happens ALL THE TIME.

The story is showing that a person with present privilege who doesn’t care about those without (even treating his dogs better than a human being) will get their die reward of negativeness in the after life.
The rich man would rather feed his dogs than aid a poor man.., so when he died the allegory rests on the rich man going to hell and the poor man going to heaven. There the ‘comfort positions’ are reversed.

The rich man cries out for mercy… but as he didn’t give any in his life on earth so he doesn’t get any in the allegorical afterlife.

Further, he tries to warn his relatives to be kind but this is dismissed by the Angel who reminds him that since no one believed a living person who gave them righteous ways to live… how are they going to believe a warning from a spirit from the dead !!

Ars you really telling me that you cannot see the allegory in the story??

(if there are any spelling mistakes I’m sorry - I got an eye problem right now!!)
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Ok, so you are deluded… I understand… this is a common problem with none believers!

I won’t trouble you more as it would be a waste of time…

Just pointing this out though:
  • Heaven is a spirit world
  • Paradise is an earthly (flesh) world
Says who?
And I'm a believer.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
The rich man cries out for mercy… but as he didn’t give any in his life on earth so he doesn’t get any in the allegorical afterlife
Oh please! Jesus didn't create an allegorical afterlife just to make a point. And in the other parables, the settings were true to life. They were not fantasy world's.
 
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