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Changing beliefs

idea

Question Everything
Many religious faiths hold truth to be constant and unchanging, yet change their doctrine and practices through the years as new information and social norms are changed.

For those who are religious, what changes in your religious organization would cause you to leave your faith? Do you recognize previous changes, and if so, how do you justify remaining in your church knowing its changing doctrines?

Example - pre-1990 Mormon (aka The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) changes to temple ceremony - a few words in bold removed as they attempted to become more mainstream:

As most Mormons know, the temple endowment is essential for salvation and was written by Joseph Smith and Brigham Young through "direct divine revelation." Even more pure in divine form than the Book of Mormon, the temple ceremonies are untainted sources of true Mormon Doctrine.

For well over one hundred years, the temple endowment included a Protestant minister character (wearing a collar) that was in the employ of Satan.

For those of us who took our temple covenants prior to 1990 when the minister character disappeared from the endowment, how many of us were shocked or offended by the portrayal of the minister or his removal from the newer version? [The Protestant minister was removed in the new 1990 version of the Mormon Endowment ceremony that take place in Mormon Temples. His role in the endowment is below - word by word as it was in the pre-1990 temple ceremony]

If the endowment teaches important truths, then why were these plain and precious teachings removed?


ADAM: I am looking for messengers.

LUCIFER: Oh, you want someone to preach to you. You want religion, do you? I will have preachers here presently.

(Lucifer turns his head as a PROTESTANT minister approaches.)

LUCIFER: Good Morning sir!

PROTESTANT MINISTER: Good morning!

(The preacher turns and looks into the camera.)

PROTESTANT MINISTER: A fine congregation!

LUCIFER: Yes, they are a very good people. They are concerned about religion. Are you a preacher?

PROTESTANT MINISTER: I am.

LUCIFER: Have you been to college and received training for the ministry?

PROTESTANT MINISTER: Certainly! A man cannot preach unless has been trained for the ministry.

LUCIFER: Do you preach the orthodox religion?

PROTESTANT MINISTER: Yes, that is what I preach.

LUCIFER: If you will preach your orthodox religion to these people, and convert them, I will pay you well.

PROTESTANT MINISTER: I will do my best.

(Lucifer guides the preacher to Adam and Eve, who stand nearby.)

LUCIFER: Here is a man who desires religion. He is very much exercised, and seems to be sincere.

(As Lucifer presents the preacher to Adam and Eve he steps back and observes the ensuing conversation. The preacher is made to sound sincere, although misguided and credulous. Adam appears humble, faithful and immovable in his determination to serve God. He is not swayed by the preacher, and is astounded by the doctrines espoused by the preacher.)

PROTESTANT MINISTER: I understand that you are inquiring after religion.

ADAM: I was calling upon Father.

PROTESTANT MINISTER: I am glad to know that you were calling upon Father. Do you believe in a God who is without body, parts, or passions; who sits on the top of a topless throne; whose center is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere; who fills the universe, and yet is so small that he can dwell in your heart; who is surrounded by myriads of beings who have been saved by grace, not for any act of theirs, but by His good pleasure. Do you believe in such a great Being?

ADAM: I do not. I cannot comprehend such a being.

PROTESTANT MINISTER: That is the beauty of it. Perhaps you do not believe in a devil, and in that great hell, the bottomless pit, where there is a lake of fire and brimstone into which the wicked are cast, and where they are continually burning, but none never consumed?

ADAM: I do not believe in any such place.

PROTESTANT MINISTER: My dear friend, I am sorry for you.

LUCIFER: I am sorry, very very sorry! What is it you want?

ADAM: I am looking for messengers from my Father.

(The scene changes to a view of the Celestial Kingdom, where Elohim reigns from a white throne affront tall white pillars. He is radiant as before, and his voice resonates as he speaks with Jehovah, who stands before him. He commands Jehovah to send down Peter, James and John)

PETER: Good morning.

LUCIFER: Good morning gentlemen.

PETER: What are you doing here?

LUCIFER: Teaching religion.

PETER: What religion do you teach?

LUCIFER: We teach a religion made of the philosophies of men, mingled with scripture.

PETER: How is your religion received by this community?

LUCIFER: Very well--excepting this man. He does not seem to believe anything we preach.

(Peter, James and John approach Adam and Eve.)

PETER: Good morning. What do you think of the preaching of these gentlemen?

ADAM: I cannot comprehend it.

PETER: Can you give us some idea concerning it?

ADAM: They preach of a God who is without body, parts, or passions; who is so large that he fills the universe, and yet is so small that he can dwell in your heart; and of a hell, without a bottom, where the wicked are continually burned but are never consumed. To me, it is a mass of confusion.

PETER: We do not wonder that you cannot comprehend such doctrine. Have you any tokens or signs?

(Lucifer steps up to the side of Peter and interjects his query.)

LUCIFER: Do you have any money?

PETER: We have sufficient for our needs.

LUCIFER: You can buy anything in this world for money.

PETER: Do you sell your tokens or signs for money? You have them, I presume.

ADAM: I have them, but I do not sell them for money. I hold them sacred. I am looking for the further light and knowledge Father promised to send me.

PETER: That is right. We commend you for your integrity. Good day. We shall probably visit you again.

(Peter, James and John exit; Lucifer stares into the camera.)

LUCIFER: Now is the great day of my power. I reign from the rivers to the ends of the earth. There is none who dares to molest, or make me afraid.

PROTESTANT MINISTER: Shall we ever have any apostles or prophets?

LUCIFER: No. However, there may be some who will profess revelation or apostleship. If so, just test them by asking that they perform a great miracle, such as cutting off an arm or some other member of the body, and restoring it, so that the people may know that they have come with power.

(The scene changes to the Celestial Kingdom. Peter, James, and John approach Jehovah with their report.)

PETER: Jehovah, we have visited the man Adam in the Telestial World as thou didst command us. We found Satan there, with his ministers, preaching all manner of false doctrine, and striving to lead the posterity of Adam astray. But Adam has been true and faithful to the token and sign given him in the Garden of Eden, and is waiting for the further light and knowledge you promised to send him. This is our report.

.....

(The scene changes again to the lone and dreary world. The three Apostles boldly approach Lucifer.)

PETER: I am Peter.

JAMES: I am James.

JOHN: I am John.

LUCIFER: Yes, I thought I knew you. (He turns to his Preacher.) Do you know who these men are? They claim to be apostles. Try them!

(The Preacher approaches Peter.)

PROTESTANT MINISTER: Do you profess to be an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ?


PETER: We do.

PROTESTANT MINISTER: This man told me that we should never have any revelation or apostles, but if any should come professing to be apostles, I was to ask them to cut off an arm or some other member of the body and the restore it, so that the people might know that they came with power.

PETER: We do not satisfy men's curiosity in that manner. It is a wicked and an adulterous generation that seeks for a sign. Do you know who that man is? He is Satan!

PROTESTANT MINISTER: What? The Devil?

PETER: That is one of his names.

PROTESTANT MINISTER: He is quite a different person from what he told me the devil is. He said the devil has claws like a bear's on his hands, horns on his head, and a cloven foot, and that when he speaks he has the roar of a lion!

PETER: He has said this to deceive you, and I would advise you to get out of his employ.

PROTESTANT MINISTER: Your advise is good; but, if I leave his employ, what will become of me?

PETER: We will preach the gospel unto you, with the rest of Adam's posterity.

PROTESTANT MINISTER: That is good. (He turns to Lucifer) I would like to have a settlement. I want you to pay me for preaching.

LUCIFER: I am ready to keep my word and fulfill my part of the agreement. I promised to pay you if you would convert these people, and they have nearly converted you! You can get out of my kingdom, I want no such men in it! (As the preacher turns sadly and leaves Lucifer approaches Peter) Now, what are you going to do?

PETER: We will dismiss you without further argument.

Mormon: Pre-1990 Mormon Temple Endowment Protestant Minister
 

Lain

Well-Known Member
For those who are religious, what changes in your religious organization would cause you to leave your faith? Do you recognize previous changes, and if so, how do you justify remaining in your church knowing its changing doctrines?

I recognize development but not a change in substance (for instance the first video in my signature contains a developed expression of the teachings about God but it is the same in substance to what the Lord Jesus and the Apostles taught). A change in substance that would make me leave my Church (although it would not make me "lose my faith" as if I no longer held the Lord Jesus to be Lord, I would just become Orthodox) include but are not limited to:

- Denial of the Holy Trinity.
- A denial of Chalcedonian Christology.
- A defect in the Papacy (this would immediately prove an entire infallible Council to be fallible, making the whole fake).
- Denial of Original Sin.
- Teaching that the Second Vatican Council did not bind or teach anything (some groups want this).
- Denial of creation ex nihilo.
- Teaching that usury is acceptable.
- Embracing Pelagianism.
- Denying any teaching on the BVM (such as the Immaculate Conception).

Those are examples of what would make me immediately leave.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
I don’t think staying in a religious organization, especially one which claims to be “the true church or group” representing God on the earth can be justified when they make major changes to their doctrine. I left the Catholic Church for this reason, as well as the Mormon Church later. I did go through the temple ceremony pre- 1990 and became aware of the changes made which you highlighted above.
 

idea

Question Everything
I recognize development but not a change in substance (for instance the first video in my signature contains a developed expression of the teachings about God but it is the same in substance to what the Lord Jesus and the Apostles taught). A change in substance that would make me leave my Church (although it would not make me "lose my faith" as if I no longer held the Lord Jesus to be Lord, I would just become Orthodox) include but are not limited to:

- Denial of the Holy Trinity.
- A denial of Chalcedonian Christology.
- A defect in the Papacy (this would immediately prove an entire infallible Council to be fallible, making the whole fake).
- Denial of Original Sin.
- Teaching that the Second Vatican Council did not bind or teach anything (some groups want this).
- Denial of creation ex nihilo.
- Teaching that usury is acceptable.
- Embracing Pelagianism.
- Denying any teaching on the BVM (such as the Immaculate Conception).

Those are examples of what would make me immediately leave.


Good list. Did the above list originate in your church? If you have faith in something more than a church, where did this faith come from?

I used to think I had faith beyond my religious group, but have now realized questioning that group has resulted in questioning all the information from that group.
 

idea

Question Everything
I don’t think staying in a religious organization, especially one which claims to be “the true church or group” representing God on the earth can be justified when they make major changes to their doctrine. I left the Catholic Church for this reason, as well as the Mormon Church later. I did go through the temple ceremony pre- 1990 and became aware of the changes made which you highlighted above.

Did leaving one group make it easier to leave another? Do you think you could ever be part of a group which believes itself to be the "true faith" again?
 

Lain

Well-Known Member
Good list. Did the above list originate in your church? If you have faith in something more than a church, where did this faith come from?

I used to think I had faith beyond my religious group, but have now realized questioning that group has resulted in questioning all the information from that group.

It originated with me. I am a convert into the Church, my faith in the Person of the Lord Jesus came from before I affiliated with any Church at all. It originated from Him, so while I do believe my Church to be true (I wouldn't be here otherwise) I would not be devastated by it not being true.
 

idea

Question Everything
It originated with me. I am a convert into the Church, my faith in the Person of the Lord Jesus came from before I affiliated with any Church at all. It originated from Him, so while I do believe my Church to be true (I wouldn't be here otherwise) I would not be devastated by it not being true.


If you had grown up in a non-Christian country, or in a time period without access to the Bible or other scripture, do you think you would still have the same beliefs?
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I wrote about the leaving aspect in some earlier thread.

Many religious faiths hold truth to be constant and unchanging, yet change their doctrine and practices

Truth is not a collection of facts. So for the truth to be expressed in different practices in different places and times is not an issue for me.

From the news and for some, drastic changes do cause people to leave religious organizations.
 

Lain

Well-Known Member
If you had grown up in a non-Christian country, or in a time period without access to the Bible or other scripture, do you think you would still have the same beliefs?

No, for "faith comes through hearing." St. Paul makes this point also:

"How then will they call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how will they believe in him about whom they have not heard? And how will they hear about him without one who preaches to them? And how will they preach, unless they are sent?"

So if I had not heard I find it extremely doubtful that I would have believed. If I were in a non-Christian maybe if I had the internet (hearing again), I have met a lot people who are secretly Christians in a Muslim country for instance, but I think it would be less likely.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
I don’t think staying in a religious organization, especially one which claims to be “the true church or group” representing God on the earth can be justified when they make major changes to their doctrine. I left the Catholic Church for this reason, as well as the Mormon Church later. I did go through the temple ceremony pre- 1990 and became aware of the changes made which you highlighted above.
You have been through the wringer! Its not easy uprooting multiple times.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Many religious faiths hold truth to be constant and unchanging, yet change their doctrine and practices through the years as new information and social norms are changed.
I admire any such institution which has the humility to admit errors. "We could be wrong." is so difficult to admit, but its the only way forward without ignoring all faults and without letting wounds get infected.

Therefore what would make me leave and keeps me away are sermons with vitriol or warnings about other ministries and other churches such as: "Most Christians aren't as fortunate as we are to have the bible preached like we do" and "Unlike a lot of places we here preach the whole gospel" and "...we've been blessed here with the truth.." and "...many such ministries have fallen into deceit" and "many churches have turned into nothing but social clubs!" etc.

There is no end of this in sermonizing, because its how you make the big bucks in ministry. Scare your flock, especially the younger people. Make other ministries and christians not in your church look unfortunate. Do it with your side comments whenever people are just barely paying attention, when they are not thinking critically. Criticize by humbly warning and by being grateful for what you have that other churches don't. Then in your prayers, openings and closings make yourself seem humble and compliment the congregation. Always complement the congregation. Make everyone afraid to leave or embarrassed to leave, but make them feel good about themselves for coming to church. You know, spread the net for their feet. So that is what would make me leave any church.
 

idea

Question Everything
I admire any such institution which has the humility to admit errors. "We could be wrong." is so difficult to admit, but its the only way forward without ignoring all faults and without letting wounds get infected.

Therefore what would make me leave and keeps me away are sermons with vitriol or warnings about other ministries and other churches such as: "Most Christians aren't as fortunate as we are to have the bible preached like we do" and "Unlike a lot of places we here preach the whole gospel" and "...we've been blessed here with the truth.." and "...many such ministries have fallen into deceit" and "many churches have turned into nothing but social clubs!" etc.

There is no end of this in sermonizing, because its how you make the big bucks in ministry. Scare your flock, especially the younger people. Make other ministries and christians not in your church look unfortunate. Do it with your side comments whenever people are just barely paying attention, when they are not thinking critically. Criticize by humbly warning and by being grateful for what you have that other churches don't. Then in your prayers, openings and closings make yourself seem humble and compliment the congregation. Always complement the congregation. Make everyone afraid to leave or embarrassed to leave, but make them feel good about themselves for coming to church. You know, spread the net for their feet. So that is what would make me leave any church.

Would a religion which admits faults, changes doctrine, and does not claim to know anything provide stability and a sense of security? What benefits of following such a group would there be?
 

idea

Question Everything
No, for "faith comes through hearing." St. Paul makes this point also:

"How then will they call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how will they believe in him about whom they have not heard? And how will they hear about him without one who preaches to them? And how will they preach, unless they are sent?"

So if I had not heard I find it extremely doubtful that I would have believed. If I were in a non-Christian maybe if I had the internet (hearing again), I have met a lot people who are secretly Christians in a Muslim country for instance, but I think it would be less likely.

Does your belief system allow just and equal rewards for all considering different educational environments? *For example, it would not be just or loving to hold a child who had no formal education to the same testing standards as children from a privileged background).
 

Lain

Well-Known Member
Does your belief system allow just and equal rewards for all considering different educational environments? *For example, it would not be just or loving to hold a child who had no formal education to the same testing standards as children from a privileged background).

Yes. There are several principles related to this in Scripture and Church teaching.

Jesus said to the Samaritan woman "you worship what you do not know but we worship what we do know." Likewise the Church teaches the same concerning Muslims, Jews, and other monotheists. They truly worship God along with us even though in our opinion they have false ideas about God, and God truly does respond to them.

St. Paul said "whenever the Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things of the law, these, although they do not have the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written on their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts one after another accusing or even defending them," likewise the Church recognizes the absolute primacy of conscience in moral judgment (and the judgment of God), people are to truly follow it and will be judged by what they know, those ignorant of the truth of the Gospel can still be saved, and in fact every human being has a concrete offer of salvation given to them, even those who reject the Church, even those who do not even know that it exists. Jesus also said "if you were blind, you would have no sin. But since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains," which elucidates the principle of knowledge being a very relevant factor in judgment.

In general, yes. God is impartial and judges all according to their specific conditions, and this was recognized even from the beginning ages of the Church. St. Justin Martyr (died 165AD) said: "But lest some should, without reason, and for the perversion of what we teach, maintain that we say that Christ was born one hundred and fifty years ago under Cyrenius, and subsequently, in the time of Pontius Pilate, taught what we say He taught; and should cry out against us as though all men who were born before Him were irresponsible — let us anticipate and solve the difficulty. We have been taught that Christ is the first-born of God, and we have declared above that He is the Word of whom every race of men were partakers; and those who lived reasonably are Christians, even though they have been thought atheists; as, among the Greeks, Socrates and Heraclitus, and men like them..."

This also applies to those who are after Christ and do not know Him or who know Him but their rejection of Him is not accounted sin for some reason (which the Pope recognizes and teaches is possible and they can be saved).

A long way to answer "yes" to your question, but yes. "To whom much is given much is required" and vice versa.
 

idea

Question Everything
Yes. There are several principles related to this in Scripture and Church teaching.

Jesus said to the Samaritan woman "you worship what you do not know but we worship what we do know." Likewise the Church teaches the same concerning Muslims, Jews, and other monotheists. They truly worship God along with us even though in our opinion they have false ideas about God, and God truly does respond to them.

St. Paul said "whenever the Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things of the law, these, although they do not have the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written on their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts one after another accusing or even defending them," likewise the Church recognizes the absolute primacy of conscience in moral judgment (and the judgment of God), people are to truly follow it and will be judged by what they know, those ignorant of the truth of the Gospel can still be saved, and in fact every human being has a concrete offer of salvation given to them, even those who reject the Church, even those who do not even know that it exists. Jesus also said "if you were blind, you would have no sin. But since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains," which elucidates the principle of knowledge being a very relevant factor in judgment.

In general, yes. God is impartial and judges all according to their specific conditions, and this was recognized even from the beginning ages of the Church. St. Justin Martyr (died 165AD) said: "But lest some should, without reason, and for the perversion of what we teach, maintain that we say that Christ was born one hundred and fifty years ago under Cyrenius, and subsequently, in the time of Pontius Pilate, taught what we say He taught; and should cry out against us as though all men who were born before Him were irresponsible — let us anticipate and solve the difficulty. We have been taught that Christ is the first-born of God, and we have declared above that He is the Word of whom every race of men were partakers; and those who lived reasonably are Christians, even though they have been thought atheists; as, among the Greeks, Socrates and Heraclitus, and men like them..."

This also applies to those who are after Christ and do not know Him or who know Him but their rejection of Him is not accounted sin for some reason (which the Pope recognizes and teaches is possible and they can be saved).

A long way to answer "yes" to your question, but yes. "To whom much is given much is required" and vice versa.

Do you think it is fair and loving for some to be given much, and others given confusion?
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Many religious faiths hold truth to be constant and unchanging, yet change their doctrine and practices through the years as new information and social norms are changed.

For those who are religious, what changes in your religious organization would cause you to leave your faith? Do you recognize previous changes, and if so, how do you justify remaining in your church knowing its changing doctrines?

Example - pre-1990 Mormon (aka The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) changes to temple ceremony - a few words in bold removed as they attempted to become more mainstream:
It's very simple.

Any church of any religion and any denomination will lose its congregation if its congregation don't like the performance.

Accommodate or perish.

And any god who loses his her or its congregation is, supernaturally speaking, a dead duck.

So (to take one example) now Yahweh doesn't like slavery, has given up human sacrifice, is getting to accept divorce (which is a bit rich considering [his] own divorce from Asherah two or three thousand years back) and even [his] homophobia is on the wane.

Accommodate or perish!
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Did leaving one group make it easier to leave another? Do you think you could ever be part of a group which believes itself to be the "true faith" again?
It’s possible that leaving one group makes it easier to leave another. For me it was the inconsistency.
I could never be part of an organization, church or group that claimed to exclusively have the truth or be the only way to God, because I now know that Jesus Christ alone is the Savior and there is no other mediator. Believers in Christ compose His Body all over the world.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
You have been through the wringer! Its not easy uprooting multiple times.
No, it’s not easy, but truth has been more important to me than group affiliation. Finally, I found that Jesus was enough because He is the truth, the way and the life...
I have since been involved with various churches, but they don’t claim to be... “the true church or exclusive way to God “ because it is acknowledged that Christ Alone is sufficient.
 

Lain

Well-Known Member
Do you think it is fair and loving for some to be given much, and others given confusion?

I think that it is outright impossible for one to consider the Providence of God under this aspect, but inasmuch as all God does is loving for He is love then yes it is.

"What then shall we say? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For to Moses he says, 'I will have mercy on whomever I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I have compassion.' Consequently therefore, it does not depend on the one who wills or on the one who runs, but on God who shows mercy. For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very reason I have raised you up, so that I may demonstrate my power in you, and so that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Consequently therefore, he has mercy on whomever he wishes, and he hardens whomever he wishes.

"Therefore you will say to me, 'Why then does he still find fault? For who has resisted his will? On the contrary, O man, who are you who answers back to God? Will what is molded say to the one who molded it, 'Why did you make me like this'? Or does the potter not have authority over the clay, to make from the same lump a vessel that is for honorable use and one that is for ordinary use? And what if God, wanting to demonstrate his wrath and to make known his power, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And he did so in order that he could make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy that he prepared beforehand for glory, us whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?"
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Would a religion which admits faults, changes doctrine, and does not claim to know anything provide stability and a sense of security? What benefits of following such a group would there be?
There are religions which claim not to know anything and are heavily philosophical, but I don't know how to answer your question about them. I don't know what benefits follow from claiming to not know anything. How do they rear their children? I don't know if the religions help with that. Do they help society progress? I don't know. Stability? Security? I don't know.

I think that a revealed religion would benefit from not claiming to know everything perfectly and that it is the illusion of perfection which undermines revealed religions. I gather this only from my limited background and have not been Catholic or LDS or JW. I've been Charismatic, Baptist, Christadelphian. I visited the quakers for a time, too. Actually I'm expert at arguing from the NT that no one should claim perfectly revealed religion. Its almost as useful as being good at thumb wrestling, but I am good at it.
 
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