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A question to the Pantheists

firedragon

Veteran Member
This is no new question, and many in the past have tried to answer it in their own way. I would like to see how our colleagues here would be able to address this as a logical problem.

Pantheism in its very simplest idea is "God and nature are one". Philosophically there are very lengthy definitions and explanations but we can keep it short.

Predominantly, Hindu's have this as their metaphysical, religious stand. To a lesser degree, Muslim & Jewish thinkers, and others have also thought about it and embraced it as their theological position although there maybe variants in their propositions. Sufi's are Muslims who take this position.

The problem is this.

1. God is nature.
2. God created nature.
3. Thus God had to have existed before creating nature.
4. Thus God cannot be nature.

I know there are responses to this problem available right now but I believe that would change pantheism into something else. I would like to hear your thoughts.

This is not an internal criticism of pantheism but an external criticism of creationists who adopt pantheism.

Peace.
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
This is no new question, and many in the past have tried to answer it in their own way. I would like to see how our colleagues here would be able to address this as a logical problem.

Pantheism in its very simplest idea is "God and nature are one". Philosophically there are very lengthy definitions and explanations but we can keep it short.

Predominantly, Hindu's have this as their metaphysical, religious stand. To a lesser degree, Muslim & Jewish thinkers, and others have also thought about it and embraced it as their theological position although there maybe variants in their propositions. Sufi's are Muslims who take this position.

The problem is this.

1. God is nature.
2. God created nature.
3. Thus God had to have existed before creating nature.
4. Thus God cannot be nature.

I know there are responses to this problem available right now but I believe that would change pantheism into something else. I would like to hear your thoughts.

Peace.

Pantheism is god is nature so it excludes god creating nature and god existing before nature (nature meaning the physical universe and all that's in it).

I'm not understanding how its a problem unless you're comparing abrahamic view of god to pantheist view?

Can you explain?
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
This is no new question, and many in the past have tried to answer it in their own way. I would like to see how our colleagues here would be able to address this as a logical problem.

Pantheism in its very simplest idea is "God and nature are one". Philosophically there are very lengthy definitions and explanations but we can keep it short.

Predominantly, Hindu's have this as their metaphysical, religious stand. To a lesser degree, Muslim & Jewish thinkers, and others have also thought about it and embraced it as their theological position although there maybe variants in their propositions. Sufi's are Muslims who take this position.

The problem is this.

1. God is nature.
2. God created nature.
3. Thus God had to have existed before creating nature.
4. Thus God cannot be nature.

I know there are responses to this problem available right now but I believe that would change pantheism into something else. I would like to hear your thoughts.

Peace.
number two is wrong. doesn't fit pantheism. that would be panentheism.


god has a nature and nature is god
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Pantheism is god is nature so it excludes god creating nature and god existing before nature (nature meaning the physical universe and all that's in it).

I'm not understanding how its a problem unless you're comparing abrahamic view of god to pantheist view?

Can you explain?

Pantheism does not necessarily "require" creation or an explanation to creation. I am not posing an internal criticism. So it might not be relevant to all.
 

VoidCat

Pronouns: he/him/they/them
This is no new question, and many in the past have tried to answer it in their own way. I would like to see how our colleagues here would be able to address this as a logical problem.

Pantheism in its very simplest idea is "God and nature are one". Philosophically there are very lengthy definitions and explanations but we can keep it short.

Predominantly, Hindu's have this as their metaphysical, religious stand. To a lesser degree, Muslim & Jewish thinkers, and others have also thought about it and embraced it as their theological position although there maybe variants in their propositions. Sufi's are Muslims who take this position.

The problem is this.

1. God is nature.
2. God created nature.
3. Thus God had to have existed before creating nature.
4. Thus God cannot be nature.

I know there are responses to this problem available right now but I believe that would change pantheism into something else. I would like to hear your thoughts.

Peace.
I as a pantheist polytheist don't know nor care if the gods created the earth. Could've been the big bang. Also while the earth itself is a deity and so is the universe doesn't mean a deity outside it couldn't have created it
 
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firedragon

Veteran Member
I as a pantheist polytheist don't know nor care if the gods created the earth. Could've been the big bang. Also while the earth itself is a deity and so is the universe doesn't mean a deity outside it couldn't have created it

Brother, how do you reconcile pantheism and polytheism?
 

VoidCat

Pronouns: he/him/they/them
I mean my beliefs do have elements of pantheism in the fact I believe the gods are part of nature.
 

The Hammer

[REDACTED]
Premium Member
Brother, how do you reconcile pantheism and polytheism?

I do via a concept similar to Brahman. The Gods imminate from a non-conscious "Source", and this source is a fundamental aspect of Nature, that orders it (consider it like pure energy/power/mana).

Also know as soft Polytheism.
 

VoidCat

Pronouns: he/him/they/them
I do via a concept similar to Brahman. The Gods imminate from a non-conscious "Source", and this source is a fundamental aspect of Nature, that orders it (consider it like pure energy/power/mana).

Also know as soft Polytheism.
That's kinda what I think I believe but Im still trying to figure out if that's what I believe or if my beliefs are more difficult to define
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I do via a concept similar to Brahman. The Gods imminate from a non-conscious "Source", and this source is a fundamental aspect of Nature, that orders it (consider it like pure energy/power/mana).

Also know as soft Polytheism.

You mean Nirguna Brahman?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Works for me.

Hammer. I would like to request you to read up a little bit on saguna brahman prior to making statements like "The Gods themselves would be Saguna Brahman, I guess". When I said it doesnt work that way, I mean to say that you have got it all wrong in a nice manner.

I just hope you understand. Anyway, I think this is off topic now.

You were earlier referring to a concept similar to Nirguna Brahman, and just leave it there I suppose. If you have a solution to the OP please speak of it. Thank you very much.
 
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