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Have the end times arrived?

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
It could have a lot of meaning to offer about this topic.

Regards Tony
Here is my prophecy:

The link is probably merely prophecies reinterpreted so that people can claim that they have been "fulfilled". Odds are that like most Biblical prophecies they fail from the very start. Any overly vague prophecy is a failed prophecy because one can usually claim that it has been fulfilled more than once. When that happens you can't tell if either of those are the fulfillment or if the actual fulfillment is yet to come. Such prophecies fail due to the fact that no one can every tell if they have been fulfilled or not.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I happen to believe we are living in an end times - not the Abrahamic end times but one also seen in Hinduism and Buddhism and I think Native American prophecy as well.

World War II and the Cuban Missile Crisis where the fate of the world rested on one person's decision marked a peak in the old world.

Since then to me the new one is being born quietly, out of the vision of most people. I see it as I see the first hint of spring in the middle of winter. There starts to be a subtle feeling in the air that the season is changing and small hints of the Spring.

The media is full of the dying struggles of the old order that tries to resist. The path is not a straight line but it is moving in a new direction.

Every act of love, however tiny, is helping it grow.

View attachment 56566
I also believe that we are living in an end times. Why would it be the end times seen in Hinduism and Buddhism and Native American prophecy but not the end times seen in the Abrahamic religions? I mean it makes sense to me that the end times is the end times for all religions, which is not the end of the world but rather the end of an old age and the beginning of a new age.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Here is my prophecy:

The link is probably merely prophecies reinterpreted so that people can claim that they have been "fulfilled". Odds are that like most Biblical prophecies they fail from the very start. Any overly vague prophecy is a failed prophecy because one can usually claim that it has been fulfilled more than once. When that happens you can't tell if either of those are the fulfillment or if the actual fulfillment is yet to come. Such prophecies fail due to the fact that no one can every tell if they have been fulfilled or not.

Or they are fulfilled, as a claim is made that demonstrates they have.

Regards Tony
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
This is from an article on biblical prophecies, but it applies to any holy book, Just change the wording where necessary:

Criteria for a true prophecy[edit]
For a statement to be Biblical foreknowledge, it must fit all of the five following criteria:

  1. It must be accurate. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it is not accurate, because knowledge (and thus foreknowledge) excludes inaccurate statements. TLDR: It's true.
  2. It must be in the Bible. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it is not in the Bible, because Biblical by definition foreknowledge can only come from the Bible itself, rather than modern reinterpretations of the text. TLDR: It's in plain words in the Bible.
  3. It must be precise and unambiguous. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if meaningless philosophical musings or multiple possible ideas could fulfill the foreknowledge, because ambiguity prevents one from knowing whether the foreknowledge was intentional rather than accidental. TLDR: Vague "predictions" don't count.
  4. It must be improbable. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of a pure guess, because foreknowledge requires a person to actually know something true, while a correct guess doesn't mean that the guesser knows anything. This also excludes contemporary beliefs that happened be true but were believed to be true without solid evidence. TLDR: Lucky guesses don't count.
  5. It must have been unknown. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of an educated guess based off contemporary knowledge, because foreknowledge requires a person to know a statement when it would have been impossible, outside of supernatural power, for that person to know it. TLDR: Ideas of the time don't count.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biblical_prophecies

If you do not like any of those criteria you would need to justify it since the reasons for them can be easily explained.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Not if the prophecies themselves are failed prophecies. If the underlying prophecy is flawed they cannot be "fulfilled".
What would make it flawed? If what the prophecy says will happen actually happened then it is a fulfilled prophecy, not a failed prophecy. That is the only criteria that matters -- it happened as the prophecy says it would happen.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
What would make it flawed? If what the prophecy says will happen actually happened then it is a fulfilled prophecy, not a failed prophecy. That is the only criteria that matters -- it happened as the prophecy says it would happen.

It is necessary for a prophecy to be clear when it comes to the conclusion that it was fulfilled. If two different groups both honestly believe that a prophecy was fulfilled, but they have different events that tells us that the prophecy was not clear enough. There is no way to know if either of those two events fulfilled it or if a future one would. It is automatically a failed prophecy.

Why is this so hard to understand?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
This is from an article on biblical prophecies, but it applies to any holy book, Just change the wording where necessary:

Criteria for a true prophecy[edit]
For a statement to be Biblical foreknowledge, it must fit all of the five following criteria:

  1. It must be accurate. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it is not accurate, because knowledge (and thus foreknowledge) excludes inaccurate statements. TLDR: It's true.
  2. It must be in the Bible. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it is not in the Bible, because Biblical by definition foreknowledge can only come from the Bible itself, rather than modern reinterpretations of the text. TLDR: It's in plain words in the Bible.
  3. It must be precise and unambiguous. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if meaningless philosophical musings or multiple possible ideas could fulfill the foreknowledge, because ambiguity prevents one from knowing whether the foreknowledge was intentional rather than accidental. TLDR: Vague "predictions" don't count.
  4. It must be improbable. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of a pure guess, because foreknowledge requires a person to actually know something true, while a correct guess doesn't mean that the guesser knows anything. This also excludes contemporary beliefs that happened be true but were believed to be true without solid evidence. TLDR: Lucky guesses don't count.
  5. It must have been unknown. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of an educated guess based off contemporary knowledge, because foreknowledge requires a person to know a statement when it would have been impossible, outside of supernatural power, for that person to know it. TLDR: Ideas of the time don't count.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biblical_prophecies

If you do not like any of those criteria you would need to justify it since the reasons for them can be easily explained.
Those are your criteria, not the criteria of the prophets. The prophets did not reveal the prophecies to suit your criteria. A prophecy must be nothing but what the prophet revealed for HIS purposes, not for your purposes. The prophets did not care if the prophecies were convincing.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
It is necessary for a prophecy to be clear when it comes to the conclusion that it was fulfilled. If two different groups both honestly believe that a prophecy was fulfilled, but they have different events that tells us that the prophecy was not clear enough. There is no way to know if either of those two events fulfilled it or if a future one would. It is automatically a failed prophecy.

Why is this so hard to understand?
Not clear enough for you to know which group was correct but the intention of the prophets was not to be clear so everyone would know exactly what the prophecy refers to. It is only failed in that it failed to convince you it was fulfilled because you do not know what it refers to, but that does not mean that the prophecy was unfulfilled.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Those are your criteria, not the criteria of the prophets. The prophets did not reveal the prophecies to suit your criteria. A prophecy must be nothing but what the prophet revealed for HIS purposes, not for your purposes. The prophets did not care if the prophecies were convincing.
And they are the criteria of anyone that reasons rationally. You are making the mistake of using the criteria of wanting to believe. My criteria is that I want to be correct.

It is very easy to fool oneself with "fulfilled prophecies". It is very hard to convince others. If your prophecies met those more than reasonable standards then they would convince people. As you and others abuse the concept they only convince yourselves. And since you were already convinced that makes them worthless.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Not clear enough for you to know which group was correct but the intention of the prophets was not to be clear so everyone would know exactly what the prophecy refers to. It is only failed in that it failed to convince you it was fulfilled because you do not know what it refers to, but that does not mean that the prophecy was unfulfilled.
And there is the problem. Not "everyone" did know what the intent of the prophecies were. Once again, multiple interpretations, or even the ability of them make them failed prophecies.

This is not a difficult idea to understand. The job of a prophecy is not to convince the Kool Air drinkers.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Not if the prophecies themselves are failed prophecies. If the underlying prophecy is flawed they cannot be "fulfilled".

Where are you looking for the Prophecies?

The Bible for instance has them recorded.

As such to say they are flawed is offering the record called the Bible is flawed.

Regards Tony
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
And they are the criteria of anyone that reasons rationally. You are making the mistake of using the criteria of wanting to believe. My criteria is that I want to be correct.
I already knew who Baha'u'llah was 42 years before I ever read one bible verse, I did not need need bible prophecies to know who He was. The fulfilled bible prophecies were just like icing on the cake.
It is very easy to fool oneself with "fulfilled prophecies". It is very hard to convince others. If your prophecies met those more than reasonable standards then they would convince people. As you and others abuse the concept they only convince yourselves. And since you were already convinced that makes them worthless.
Prophecies were not written in order to convince people, that is just what you want. The mistake you make is in assuming that they were written with the intention of convincing people. You just assume that but no prophet ever said that.

Some of the prophecies do meet those standards but they still do not convince people because people only believe what they want to believe and they will always find a reason not to believe what they don't want to believe.

Here are some prophecies for you. Can't be much clearer than that, but Christians deny the plain meaning and continue to wait for the same Jesus to return to the world.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I already knew who Baha'u'llah was 42 years before I ever read one bible verse, I did not need need bible prophecies to know who He was. The fulfilled bible prophecies were just like icing on the cake.

Prophecies were not written in order to convince people, that is just what you want. The mistake you make is in assuming that they were written with the intention of convincing people. You just assume that but no prophet ever said that.

Some of the prophecies do meet those standards but they still do not convince people because people only believe what they want to believe and they will always find a reason not to believe what they don't want to believe.

Here are some prophecies for you. Can't be much clearer than that, but Christians deny the plain meaning and continue to wait for the same Jesus to return to the world.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Cherry picking is not a proper way to debate either.

The topic right now is prophecies and how they fail.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Cherry picking is not a proper way to debate either.

The topic right now is prophecies and how they fail.
I was only trying to make a point, that no matter how clear the prophecies are people who want to deny the plain meaning will deny it. Those prophecies in John did not fail since Jesus kept His promise and never returned to this world. A failed prophecy is a prophecy that did not happen as it is written it will happen. Those prophecies in John would only be failed prophecies if Jesus showed up.

I do not see any failed prophecies since they have all been fulfilled, as has been clearly demonstrated in this book:

William Sears, Thief in the Night
 
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