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Dealing with embarrassing passages in the Bible

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I just got off the phone with a good Jewish friend. We were talking about how there were simply stories in teh Bible that we wish would suddenly vanish from the text. For example, those verses which simply assume that slavery is an inevitable and this is how to deal with it, or verses that demonstrate the oppresion of women, and even genocide.

I said to my friend, well, you and I wish that those parts of the text weren't there, but there are those who don't feel that way. What they do instead is try to justify i.e. the slavery, the oppression of women, and the genocide.

So I hope that this thread will engender a dialogue between the two groups, those who are embarassed and those who justify.

You can choose any passage of scripture to discuss that you want, but for those who need a starting point, how about we discuss the fact that Sarah gave her slave to Abraham to wife. This means that Abraham was basically having sex with Hagar without Hagar's consent, since the very definition of a chattel slave is one whose life belongs to another and who has no choice but to do as he/she is commanded. And if there is no consent, that, by modern understanding, is rape.

I find this story to be horrifying. I know, I know, I've been told by so many people that you can't expect people from history to be held to the same morals that we have today. BUT the Torah is supposed to be the word of God. It is supposed to be the book that we go to in order to learn to be better, more decent human beings.

Okay, folks, commence....
 

Lain

Well-Known Member
I just got off the phone with a good Jewish friend. We were talking about how there were simply stories in teh Bible that we wish would suddenly vanish from the text. For example, those verses which simply assume that slavery is an inevitable and this is how to deal with it, or verses that demonstrate the oppresion of women, and even genocide.

I said to my friend, well, you and I wish that those parts of the text weren't there, but there are those who don't feel that way. What they do instead is try to justify i.e. the slavery, the oppression of women, and the genocide.

So I hope that this thread will engender a dialogue between the two groups, those who are embarassed and those who justify.

You can choose any passage of scripture to discuss that you want, but for those who need a starting point, how about we discuss the fact that Sarah gave her slave to Abraham to wife. This means that Abraham was basically having sex with Hagar without Hagar's consent, since the very definition of a chattel slave is one whose life belongs to another and who has no choice but to do as he/she is commanded. And if there is no consent, that, by modern understanding, is rape.

I find this story to be horrifying. I know, I know, I've been told by so many people that you can't expect people from history to be held to the same morals that we have today. BUT the Torah is supposed to be the word of God. It is supposed to be the book that we go to in order to learn to be better, more decent human beings.

Okay, folks, commence....

On Hagar that is something I've been interested in before, whether or not a concubine counts as a legitimate wife and so is moral or not. It is a subject with various people on either side, but I tend towards thinking concubinage was permitted by God and not an unjust thing (for whatever God does is just, Psalm 18 [19] and 118 [119] speak of the beauty of His Laws/Commandments/Ways/etc). I'd place it in the same category as polygyny and natural marriage divorce then (natural marriage being the kind in the Torah). That is a matter that could go either way to me though, as they primarily are in narrative and not in Law, so if it was truly not permitted by God then I can understand it being wrong.

I do hold people from all eras to the exact same standards of justice (if there are no other considerations), I am not sure why people think we've become morally advanced. I don't think that's happened really but I could be wrong on that also.
 

King Phenomenon

Well-Known Member
I just got off the phone with a good Jewish friend. We were talking about how there were simply stories in teh Bible that we wish would suddenly vanish from the text. For example, those verses which simply assume that slavery is an inevitable and this is how to deal with it, or verses that demonstrate the oppresion of women, and even genocide.

I said to my friend, well, you and I wish that those parts of the text weren't there, but there are those who don't feel that way. What they do instead is try to justify i.e. the slavery, the oppression of women, and the genocide.

So I hope that this thread will engender a dialogue between the two groups, those who are embarassed and those who justify.

You can choose any passage of scripture to discuss that you want, but for those who need a starting point, how about we discuss the fact that Sarah gave her slave to Abraham to wife. This means that Abraham was basically having sex with Hagar without Hagar's consent, since the very definition of a chattel slave is one whose life belongs to another and who has no choice but to do as he/she is commanded. And if there is no consent, that, by modern understanding, is rape.

I find this story to be horrifying. I know, I know, I've been told by so many people that you can't expect people from history to be held to the same morals that we have today. BUT the Torah is supposed to be the word of God. It is supposed to be the book that we go to in order to learn to be better, more decent human beings.

Okay, folks, commence....
The true word of God is in one’s real life
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
On Hagar that is something I've been interested in before, whether or not a concubine counts as a legitimate wife and so is moral or not. It is a subject with various people on either side, but I tend towards thinking concubinage was permitted by God and not an unjust thing (for whatever God does is just, Psalm 18 [19] and 118 [119] speak of the beauty of His Laws/Commandments/Ways/etc). I'd place it in the same category as polygyny and natural marriage divorce then (natural marriage being the kind in the Torah). That is a matter that could go either way to me though, as they primarily are in narrative and not in Law, so if it was truly not permitted by God then I can understand it being wrong.

I do hold people from all eras to the exact same standards of justice (if there are no other considerations), I am not sure why people think we've become morally advanced. I don't think that's happened really but I could be wrong on that also.
A marriage that is forced is not a legitimate marraige and any resulting sex is rape, whether you give the woman the official title of concubine or wife. Polygamy, forced marraiges, and concubinage are oppressive to women. If its oppressive, it's morally wrong.

We consdier ourselves more morally advanced because for example in ages past, people couldn't even IMAGINE a world where slavery was illegal. Now, every recognized country has outlawed chattel slavery. (Maurutania being the last to do so in 2007.)

The culture today has a VERY strong sense that harming another person is wrong, regardless of what sex, ethnicity, national identity, sexual orientation, or religion a person is. THAT is simply more advanced than past civilizations, which have basically crapped on women and minorities.

I am sure that in the future, even more progress will be made, and they will look down on us for being morally backwards. For example, presently it seems perfectly acceptable to people that some human beings sleep on the streets. I think future generations will slam us for thinking that this was okay.
 

Lain

Well-Known Member
A marriage that is forced is not a legitimate marraige and any resulting sex is rape, whether you give the woman the official title of concubine or wife. Polygamy, forced marraiges, and concubinage are oppressive to women. If its oppressive, it's morally wrong.

We consdier ourselves more morally advanced because for example in ages past, people couldn't even IMAGINE a world where slavery was illegal. Now, every recognized country has outlawed chattel slavery. (Maurutania being the last to do so in 2007.)

The culture today has a VERY strong sense that harming another person is wrong, regardless of what sex, ethnicity, national identity, sexual orientation, or religion a person is. THAT is simply more advanced than past civilizations, which have basically crapped on women and minorities.

I am sure that in the future, even more progress will be made, and they will look down on us for being morally backwards. For example, presently it seems perfectly acceptable to people that some human beings sleep on the streets. I think future generations will slam us for thinking that this was okay.

I see nothing in the text or a variant indicating there was in fact rape here. As for polygyny and concubinage being oppressive, I don't think it is ideal but I would not say they are morally wrong, it is just less good than it could be, like much of life here.

I don't actually see all forms of slavery as bad (yet another series of verses in the Law) and consider slavery to really just be a gradient of servitudes and subjections, so that we have not gotten rid of it at all currently. We still harm women and minorities and I think may very well do so until the end of the world in various forms. Although it is an interesting perspective, perhaps I am pessimistic about human nature.
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
How do we know whether or not Hagar consented?

Well the text said that Sarah offered Hagar not that Hagar offered herself. It doesn't say either that Sarah offered with Hagar consent. Only that Hagar was offered. Her consent was completely irrelevant. According to the laws and customs of the Hebrew at the time, she could not have denied such an order from her mistress either. In other words, that she consented or not it would have happened anyway.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I'd need to look at the text carefully so see what she is labeled as.
The word used is hand maiden. Its a subcategory of slave. She is also called a slave directly.

Genesis 16:1-2
Now Sarai, Abram’s wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian slave named Hagar; so she said to Abram, “The LORD has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my slave; perhaps I can build a family through her.” Abram agreed to what Sarai said.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
The word used is hand maiden. Its a subcategory of slave. She is also called a slave directly.

Genesis 16:1-2
Now Sarai, Abram’s wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian slave named Hagar; so she said to Abram, “The LORD has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my slave; perhaps I can build a family through her.” Abram agreed to what Sarai said.
Compare that to Leviticus 25:44...

In Genesis the word used is שִׁפְחָ֥ה; The word used in Leviticus is אָמָֽה. So, the question is, what is a שִׁפְחָ֥ה, what is a אָמָֽה, and what's the difference between the two. I don't know the answers to these questions. But I think they need to be answered before making an assumption that Hagar was raped.

Also please note that the Judaica press translation doesn't call Hagar a slave. It says she is "an Egyptian handmaid". So does this issue come down to a simple difference in translation?

Lastly, verse 4 in Gen 16 says: " ... her mistress became unimportant in her eyes." What does this mean, and does it fit into the Hagar-was-raped narrative.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
It comes with being a sex slave.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_slavery#Sexual_and_conjugal_slavery

If you are a sex slave, you don't have consent else the term "slave" would be improper.
No-no, not that. You made a claim about Jewish law.

According to the laws and customs of the Hebrew at the time, she could not have denied such an order from her mistress either

What is your souce for "the laws and customs of the **Hebrew** at the time"??
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Compare that to Leviticus 25:44...

In Genesis the word used is שִׁפְחָ֥ה; The word used in Leviticus is אָמָֽה. So, the question is, what is a שִׁפְחָ֥ה, what is a אָמָֽה, and what's the difference between the two. I don't know the answers to these questions. But I think they need to be answered before making an assumption that Hagar was raped.

Also please note that the Judaica press translation doesn't call Hagar a slave. It says she is "an Egyptian handmaid". So does this issue come down to a simple difference in translation?

Lastly, verse 4 in Gen 16 says: " ... her mistress became unimportant in her eyes." What does this mean, and does it fit into the Hagar-was-raped narrative.

שִׁפְחָ֥ה;
shif-khaw'

Strong: H8198

Orig: feminine from an unused root meaning to spread out (as a family; see 4940); a female slave (as a member of the household):--(bond-, hand-)maid(-en, -servant), wench, bondwoman, womanservant. H4940
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Lastly, verse 4 in Gen 16 says: " ... her mistress became unimportant in her eyes." What does this mean, and does it fit into the Hagar-was-raped narrative.
It appears to me to say that Hagar felt superior to Sarah, since she had a child and sarah did not, and barren women were looked down on.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
I just got off the phone with a good Jewish friend. We were talking about how there were simply stories in teh Bible that we wish would suddenly vanish from the text. For example, those verses which simply assume that slavery is an inevitable and this is how to deal with it, or verses that demonstrate the oppresion of women, and even genocide.

I said to my friend, well, you and I wish that those parts of the text weren't there, but there are those who don't feel that way. What they do instead is try to justify i.e. the slavery, the oppression of women, and the genocide.

So I hope that this thread will engender a dialogue between the two groups, those who are embarassed and those who justify.

You can choose any passage of scripture to discuss that you want, but for those who need a starting point, how about we discuss the fact that Sarah gave her slave to Abraham to wife. This means that Abraham was basically having sex with Hagar without Hagar's consent, since the very definition of a chattel slave is one whose life belongs to another and who has no choice but to do as he/she is commanded. And if there is no consent, that, by modern understanding, is rape.

I find this story to be horrifying. I know, I know, I've been told by so many people that you can't expect people from history to be held to the same morals that we have today. BUT the Torah is supposed to be the word of God. It is supposed to be the book that we go to in order to learn to be better, more decent human beings.

Okay, folks, commence....
I believe the Torah to be the word of God, but I don’t think that means God is endorsing everything included in it. What I mean is that, the scriptures contain many accounts of human behavior, some of which is extremely negative, immoral, or evil. Even most of the main characters have accounts revealing some of their negative behavior. I don’t think this is an endorsement, rather a revelation concerning the sinfulness of everyone at times; whether father of a nation, prophet, priest or king.

God promised Abraham many descendants. As time went on and they were getting old both Abraham and Sarah took matters into their own hands, rather than trusting God and His timing. I believe the that is the lesson of the account- it’s a big mistake to attempt to usurp God. It was wrong for Sarah to offer her servant to her husband. It was wrong for Abraham to have slept with Hagar. And it was wrong for Sarah then to mistreat Hagar. This account demonstrated human sin, specifically that of Sarah and Abraham. Nevertheless, despite their sin God still kept His promise and accomplished His will. As I believe He always does and always will in spite of any and all human sin.

Just my thoughts.
Have a good night.
 
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Firelight

Inactive member
I just got off the phone with a good Jewish friend. We were talking about how there were simply stories in teh Bible that we wish would suddenly vanish from the text. For example, those verses which simply assume that slavery is an inevitable and this is how to deal with it, or verses that demonstrate the oppresion of women, and even genocide.

I said to my friend, well, you and I wish that those parts of the text weren't there, but there are those who don't feel that way. What they do instead is try to justify i.e. the slavery, the oppression of women, and the genocide.

So I hope that this thread will engender a dialogue between the two groups, those who are embarassed and those who justify.

You can choose any passage of scripture to discuss that you want, but for those who need a starting point, how about we discuss the fact that Sarah gave her slave to Abraham to wife. This means that Abraham was basically having sex with Hagar without Hagar's consent, since the very definition of a chattel slave is one whose life belongs to another and who has no choice but to do as he/she is commanded. And if there is no consent, that, by modern understanding, is rape.

I find this story to be horrifying. I know, I know, I've been told by so many people that you can't expect people from history to be held to the same morals that we have today. BUT the Torah is supposed to be the word of God. It is supposed to be the book that we go to in order to learn to be better, more decent human beings.

Okay, folks, commence....


I find your interpretation of the story to be horrifying.

There is very little detail provided in the Bible for this story. This leaves much of the story left open to one’s own interpretation and understanding. One can fill in the blanks with all things horrible, evil, and immoral; or, one may put their faith in God, believing the Bible to be the word of God, and attempt to understand the story from a higher, spiritual, and moral point of view.

I believe Abraham to be an obedient faithful prophet of God. I believe Sarah to be obedient and faithful to God. Hagar may have been Sarah’s maid, which may mean a servant or a slave, but that does not mean she was automatically treated horribly by Sarah or Abraham. Since the two were faithful, moral, and God-fearing, I believe they would’ve treated Hagar with a great amount of respect and valued her as a person, and not as an animal. I don’t believe Hagar was given to Abraham to wife, against Hagar’s will. I don’t believe Abraham would rape her, either. It’s quite an insult for you to say such a thing about him.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
As time went on and they were getting old both Abraham and Sarah took matters into their own hands, rather than trusting God and His timing. I believe the that is the lesson of the account- it’s a big mistake to attempt to usurp God. It was wrong for Sarah to offer her servant to her husband. It was wrong for Abraham to have slept with Hagar. And it was wrong for Sarah then to mistreat Hagar.
Thank you! Thank you! An honest person.
 
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