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I don't believe it. I actually agree with AOC on something

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
You need to read about how they design algorithms that reinforce the negativity and divisiveness.
I'm well aware.
Are you saying that Facebook is the cause of current hostilities?
I see them as merely one of the players, along with news media,
comedians, other forums (including RF), politicians, & the masses.
 

Regiomontanus

Ματαιοδοξία ματαιοδοξιών! Όλα είναι ματαιοδοξία.
Interesting thing about capitalism.....we have all these
platforms for communication, & they're full of hostility,
political discord, religious animosity, etc. It's the social
"wild west.
Let's imagine that this evil capitalism were replaced with
socialism. Under its typical strong central authority, it
could make our communication venues suit stability &
correct political agenda.
What does this look like in countries with this much more
tight regulation, eg, PRC, N Korea, Cuba? We could
ask RF members who live in those countries what they
think of the advantages of their system over ours.


If the price of achieving the death of capitalism is that I can't post on internet forums, sign me up. Our system is killing the biosphere and drastic measures are our only hope. I would burn the US Constitution in a second.
 

Regiomontanus

Ματαιοδοξία ματαιοδοξιών! Όλα είναι ματαιοδοξία.
I'm well aware.
Are you saying that Facebook is the cause of current hostilities?
I see them as merely one of the players, along with news media,
comedians, other forums (including RF), politicians, & the masses.

Social media is magnifying things way beyond what would normally occur.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
If the price of achieving the death of capitalism is that I can't post on internet forums, sign me up.
There must might could be a few other
things given up in the switch to socialism.
So I urge caution...it's a frying pan vs
fire thing.
Our system is killing the biosphere and drastic measures are our only hope. I would burn the US Constitution in a second.
An alternative....
Take environmental degradation seriously.
Do something about it that directly addresses it.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Social media is magnifying things way beyond what would normally occur.
I agree.
But be careful about urging government regulation of speech.
And about believing that switching to socialism will make
the solution to problems just happen.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
As much as I have strong reservations about Fb, nevertheless they're a private company doing what private coupanies and corporations do-- try and make money. They are not a monopoly as there's other such forums.

What I am worried about is the effect of Instagram especially on our children, and I think it's especially parents that should step in and either not allow their kids into it or to limit it, as I think they should do with some other things as well. We very much limited our kids to tv back in the 70's-80's, and it had to effect of encouraging them to do more imaginative and constructive things. And they also learned that saying "I'm bored!" would not be a smart thing.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Estimates range from 10 to 30 million.
And yet none post here....other than Hong Kong,
which has English as its official language.

Socialism is not the only affliction a country might have
that prevents free speech. Theocracy can too.

You mean there are capitalist countries without free speech? How shocking. (I'm being sarcastic, in case anyone is wondering.)

Political anti-communism is different from opposing
communism as an economic system with political
conseences.
Should I say that you obviously embrace the views
of Mao, Stalin, & Pol Pot?

Well, you've already said as much, numerous times - or at least associated me with those historical figures.

Of course, I could also be just against capitalism just on that basis alone, without necessarily bringing up socialism. Since we live in the United States, it seems more relevant to look at the system we live under, rather than focusing on the systems of other countries. You're the one who always brings up other countries, but many Americans' perceptions of the outside world are often skewed and riddled with ignorance and brazen propaganda.

Honestly, I'd rather just talk about our system here, the one we live under and which has far greater influence over our lives than NK or Cuba.

Which party won the voters' favor?
(It's hard to believe that voting matters
when only the Communist Party is legal.)

It was the late 1980s, and little did I know at the time that they were just about to unravel.

But voting can still matter. I've heard many people say they vote for the individual not the party.

On the other hand, what have you heard people say about how much voting matters in America? A lot of people don't have faith in the system, thinking it's rigged (and this attitude has been discernable long before this past election).

And its in the nature of socialists to criticize capitalism
as unsalvageable, while ignoring the misery of socialism.

The difference comes in its intentions. Capitalism is, by design, meant to increase as much misery to the population as profitable (although that's been ameliorated in the West by liberalism and progressivism designed to rein in capitalism, but those ideals have been under heavy attack since the Reagan years).

Socialism, by design, intends to bring about equality, an equitable distribution of resources, and an adequate standard of living for all. And as I said, I've been there, and it wasn't really as bad as people think it is. It's not luxurious by Western standards. People who are spoiled and used to instant gratification and living in luxurious mansions with servants waiting on them - I can see why they wouldn't like socialism. But for most average people working average jobs and living in average homes - life is just what it is.

I see recurring patterns in socialists too.
The worst is to claim that only capitalist countries are socialist,
eg, Denmark....yet deny that socialist countries are socialist,
eg, N Korea. Very strange.

Actually, for most of my life, I've heard of right-wingers, anti-communists, and other armchair Cold Warriors make proclamations that all of Europe is socialist. Most of the time, those kinds of inaccuracies can be attributed to the capitalist side of the spectrum, at least when looking at America's political culture and the attitudes it fosters.

Capitalists pick arguments out of a hat whenever it suits them. They argue against economic programs that they have in Scandinavia, because "that's socialism." It's the capitalists who seem woefully confused on this particular point.

But as far as denial goes, let's talk about Pakistan again. They're capitalist, you know. In fact, most countries in the world are capitalist, even if they exist as puppet or servant states of capitalist regimes. You're so quick to compare NK or Cuba to the United States, but what about comparing Cuba to South Sudan? That would be comparing a socialist country with a capitalist country, yet neither you nor anyone else in the pro-capitalist seems willing or able to address the existence of countries like that.

Your constant refrain of painting capitalism as paradise and socialism as hell might play well in Peoria, but it's just not good enough to pass muster in anything other than an 8th grade social studies class.

And I addressed the naive trust & faith
that socialism must replace capitalism.

It's not really a matter of faith or trust. It's an understanding of history and its causes and effects. There's only so much abuse a population is willing to take before they rise up and fight their oppressors. When one can see the same recurring pattern throughout history, then one might see it as an inevitability and a consequence of human behavior.

Some people understand it; even capitalists have understood it in the past, which is why many of them supported the Keynesian policies of FDR all the way up to Nixon (who was also a Keynesian). I just recently posted an article from Time from 50 years ago discussing Nixon's price controls and other government regulations on free market capitalism - much of which was opposed by conservative capitalists and by many Reaganites later on.

That's the problem we have now, because capitalists don't think like that anymore. Now they're more of the Trump or Gordon Gekko variety.

Aye, too many people allow corruption, environmental degradation,
needless war, over-regulation, intrusive surveillance, etc.

Exactly, so why are you criticizing my idea that people should be vigilant and aware of the dangers of capitalism?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
You mean there are capitalist countries without free speech? How shocking. (I'm being sarcastic, in case anyone is wondering.)
The rest is TLTR.
Perhaps you've missed my many many claims
that capitalism does not guarantee liberty.
But liberty can exist under capitalism.
Contrast this with socialism, wherein every
single case of it has led to oppression.

But instead of addressing this, you claim that
because capitalism has some problems, we
must switch to socialism. This argument is
oblivious to its far worse problems.
 

Bodie

Member
While I am in favour of keeping an eye on these companies as far as censorship, bannings, algorithms etc. I see the attempt to blame them for poor personal choices and actions much like blaming music and video games for the same. We have seen this over and over, it's just the next "they are coming for your children" monster under the bed.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
....
But liberty can exist under capitalism.
Contrast this with socialism, wherein every
single case of it has led to oppression.

One small issue..

While better than socialism by far, there is a real threat garnered via special interest and lobbying that has certainly affected freedom by the practice of buying politictions and policys at the expense of peoples freedom and liberty.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The rest is TLTR.
Perhaps you've missed my many many claims
that capitalism does not guarantee liberty.
But liberty can exist under capitalism.
Contrast this with socialism, wherein every
single case of it has led to oppression.

But instead of addressing this, you claim that
because capitalism has some problems, we
must switch to socialism. This argument is
oblivious to its far worse problems.

Ah, but I have addressed that very point, time and time again. It's just that you and I have vastly different ideas as to what constitutes "oppression," as well as defining "every single case of it."

It may "TLTR" to you, but if you're not even reading what I write, how can you be so confident about what (you say) I don't address? Maybe it's in the part that you don't want to take the time to read, and yet, here you are, chastising me for not addressing things. I address everything.

List of socialist states - Wikipedia

If you look at this link, it says that Portugal and India are socialist, yet they are also considered relatively free countries. There may be some elements of oppression, just as we have oppression here in the freedom-loving USA.

But then, there's oppression and then there's oppression.
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
Facebook.

AOC Pounces on Facebook Blackout: 'Break Them Up'


Yea. Break up this monopoly.

There's gotta be some angle I'm not seeing though. ...

In the meantime, the enemy of my enemy is my friend for now.

LoL.
Facebook had a blackout :eek: Break it up!
Oh, the injustice! Six whole hours without Facebook!?!
They are hurting democracy!

OR

The Angle:
Facebook decided that maybe it shouldn't take down everything just because AOC says it's a lie. Inconceivable!
'So you won't take down lies?': Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez challenges Facebook CEO
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
One small issue..

While better than socialism by far, there is a real threat garnered via special interest and lobbying that has certainly affected freedom by the practice of buying politictions and policys at the expense of peoples freedom and liberty.
That's one of many problems to deal with.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I would burn the US Constitution in a second.

There are more moderate (if implausible) alternatives within the current constitution, even if you are on the revolutionary end of the spectrum. The proposal for a "second bill of rights" would provide a right for education, healthcare and other social and economic rights dates and dates back to FDR. It has since been picked up by Socialist and Communist Parties in the US with a "Bill of Rights Socialism".

Alternatively you could have an "Article V Convention" in which two-thirds of the states (34 states now) call a new constitutional convention to Amend or replace the current Constitution of the United States. You could then have a Second Constitutional Convention to draft a new constitution.

Various movements for Secession from the United States exist but it would require an Amendment to the Constitution to do so, meaning two-third of both chambers of Congress and 38 states legislatures would have to pass the Amendment allowing a state to secede.

Here's a clip of FDR's speech if you are interested.

 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Ah, but I have addressed that very point, time and time again. It's just that you and I have vastly different ideas as to what constitutes "oppression," as well as defining "every single case of it."
Which socialist countries were not oppressive
according to your values?
It may "TLTR" to you, but if you're not even reading what I write, how can you be so confident about what (you say) I don't address? Maybe it's in the part that you don't want to take the time to read, and yet, here you are, chastising me for not addressing things. I address everything.
I have many distractions.
So long repetitive posts with many diversions don't inspire reading.
List of socialist states - Wikipedia

If you look at this link, it says that Portugal and India are socialist, yet they are also considered relatively free countries.
Yet both have capitalism according to your own source.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Portugal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_India
Socialism is the people owning the means of production.
There may be some elements of oppression, just as we have oppression here in the freedom-loving USA.
On the liberty spectrum, socialist states all dwell at
the oppression end, eg, N Korea, Cuba, USSR, PRC.
But then, there's oppression and then there's oppression.
Is this a claim of equivalence?
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Which socialist countries were not oppressive
according to your values?

Well, as I said, I've visited the USSR. Didn't seem that bad to me.

By what standard are you making your judgments here? If you're saying they're oppressive by how they treat their prisoners, then perhaps we can discuss the treatment of prisoners here in the U.S. (especially during the 1930s, since that's really the only decade you're judging the USSR by).

I have many distractions.
So long repetitive posts with many diversions don't inspire reading.

Well, okay, but just don't say that I don't address these issues or that I'm not answering your arguments, because I am.

Yet both have capitalism according to your own source.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Portugal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_India
Socialism is the people owning the means of production.

I would see it more as a matter of degree. In your view, what percentage of the means of production (or which industries) have to be owned collectively in order to be considered a socialist country? If it's 99% socialist and 1% capitalist, does that automatically make it capitalist because they have capitalism.

On the liberty spectrum, socialist states all dwell at
the oppression end, eg, N Korea, Cuba, USSR, PRC.

There are capitalist countries which are worse, eg, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, South Sudan, Chad, Guatemala, El Salvador, Colombia, Mexico, Chile, and many many more. Besides, I remember you once told me that PRC is communist "in name only." Do you no longer hold that view?

Is this a claim of equivalence?

Not equivalence, just different degrees. It also depends on whose ox is gored.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
There are capitalist countries which are worse, eg, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan....
This statement suggests not understanding my oft stated
preference for capitalism, ie, that tit offers the possibility
for liberty & prosperity, unlike socialism, which has been
universally dismal. Finding bad examples of capitalist
countries is thus irrelevant to the argument.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
This statement suggests not understanding my oft stated
preference for capitalism, ie, that tit offers the possibility
for liberty & prosperity, unlike socialism, which has been
universally dismal. Finding bad examples of capitalist
countries is thus irrelevant to the argument.

Socialism has never been "universally dismal." You keep saying that, but you have no support for it, other than the standard McCarthyite propaganda, which is no evidence at all.

And my examples of bad capitalist countries is very relevant to the argument, because it's all part of the same globalist capitalist economy. None of these countries operate in a vacuum.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Socialism has never been "universally dismal." You keep saying that, but you have no support for it, other than the standard McCarthyite propaganda, which is no evidence at all.
I've cited socialist countries, eg, N Korea.
You've just not admitted they're socialist, preferring to claim
that capitalist countries like Denmark are "socialist". So your
posts are naught but Stalinist propaganda.
 
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