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I don't believe it. I actually agree with AOC on something

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
We will see if any socialists who actually live under
socialism are able to post her. So far, it's only been
socialists who live under the capitalism they decry.
29 minutes so far.

I'm confused...are you suggesting any attempt to control Facebook is socialism?
Surely not.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
You're the one who made it about capitalism.
I responded to your post.

I didn't "make it about capitalism." It's a thread about a giant company which makes enormous profits, and people are supposedly shocked and upset because they finally learned (from multiple whistleblowers and internal company documents) that they're in business to make money.

I take this as evidence of widespread misperceptions about capitalism, where people are somehow deluded into thinking that capitalists are in business for any number of possible reasons - except to make money.

Did you read the quote from the article I linked? “There were conflicts of interest between what was good for the public and what was good for Facebook. And Facebook, over and over again, chose to optimize for its own interests, like making more money,”

It takes a whistleblower to tell us this. And it's a good thing she had copious amounts of documentary evidence, otherwise no one would have believed her.

"A business wanting to make money??!? Preposterous! Where is your evidence?"

This has absolutely nothing to do with socialism, but more about conceptions of capitalism which have permeated into the political culture.
 
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lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
It's not anti capitalist which is why AOCs statement caught me off guard. I suppose a broken clock is right twice a day.

I do think however the pushing out competition by 'too big to fail' corporations are hurting what it means to live in a free republic.

Any monopolies are problematic. But monopolies around information and media are double whammies. They reduce competition but also promote skewed public perception of issues.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
It's not anti capitalist which is why AOCs statement caught me off guard.
Another poster brought up capitalism as the problem.
I addressed his claim, not yours.
I do think however the pushing out competition by 'too big to fail' corporations are hurting what it means to live in a free republic.
In post #7, I did address monopolistic practices.
BTW, Face book isn't "too big to fail"....it's so
useless that its failure would be fine with me.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I'm confused...are you suggesting any attempt to control Facebook is socialism?
Surely not.
Don't call me Shirley.
I made no such suggestion.
This came up because a socialist fellow poster
made capitalism the fundamental problem.
His alternative to it is no solution.
Did no one else read post #8?
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
It is indeed. It's a for profit venue. It sets its own
rules, & makes a pretty penny in the process.
But my question addressed members from socialist
countries. They've yet to respond. Why is that?

The socialist countries you mentioned are not English-speaking countries. If you're really interested, I suppose you could seek out sites based out of those countries and attempt to make contact to ask them.

As for me, I've been to the Soviet Union and talked to the people there. I could tell right away that most of the capitalist propaganda about them being the "evil empire" and devils with horns was completely false. You pretty much repeat the same mantra, but I've seen with my own eyes that it's not true.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Another poster brought up capitalism as the problem.
I addressed his claim, not yours.

In post #7, I did address monopolistic practices.
BTW, Face book isn't "too big to fail"....it's so
useless that its failure would be fine with me.
I was going to try to make a joke about needing it every day, but I did not even know about their recent outage until over twenty four hours after it was fixed. I have been taking a break from the news as well.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The socialist countries you mentioned are not English-speaking countries. If you're really interested, I suppose you could seek out sites based out of those countries and attempt to make contact to ask them.

As for me, I've been to the Soviet Union and talked to the people there. I could tell right away that most of the capitalist propaganda about them being the "evil empire" and devils with horns was completely false. You pretty much repeat the same mantra, but I've seen with my own eyes that it's not true.
Did you check under their hats? It is quite cold in Russia and you might have missed them.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Another poster brought up capitalism as the problem.
I addressed his claim, not yours.

I didn't exactly say that capitalism was the problem (at least not in this context, although I have said as much in other threads, so I can understand how you may have interpreted my comment). My main point was about misconceptions of capitalism and the pretend "shock" when it comes to light that they actually do something wrong or unethical.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
The socialist countries you mentioned are not English-speaking countries. If you're really interested, I suppose you could seek out sites based out of those countries and attempt to make contact to ask them.
There are many fluent in English in some, particularly China.
So it's lame to claim that lack of understanding is why they
don't post here.
As for me, I've been to the Soviet Union and talked to the people there. I could tell right away that most of the capitalist propaganda about them being the "evil empire" and devils with horns was completely false.
I think you're confusing me with Ronald Reagan.
I'm not him.
You pretty much repeat the same
mantra, but I've seen with my own eyes that it's not true.
Your (socialist) values differ from mine (libertarian).
So of course you'd be OK with life in the old USSR...strict social controls...no capitalism...the state runs everything...regulated
speech....no consumerism...a single political party...no voting.

But your post is a deflection from your blaming capitalism for
the problems with Facebook. You don't consider the merits
of Facebook, ie, that we may say things that would be harshly
punished if aired in your alternative economic system.

Instead of making capitalism the problem...consider that
Facebook poses problems that can be solved without
abandoning economic liberty.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I was going to try to make a joke about needing it every day, but I did not even know about their recent outage until over twenty four hours after it was fixed. I have been taking a break from the news as well.
Aye, twas just something in the news to me.
If Facebook disappeared, I'd only notice it on the
single museum site there that I visit for news.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I didn't exactly say that capitalism was the problem (at least not in this context, although I have said as much in other threads, so I can understand how you may have interpreted my comment).
Well, "exactly" is a seldom thing for most posters on RF.
My main point was about misconceptions of capitalism and the pretend "shock" when it comes to light that they actually do something wrong or unethical.
Misconceptions about capitalism abound, especially
with socialists (who can see only its negative extremes).
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
There are many fluent in English in some, particularly China.
So it's lame to claim that lack of understanding is why they
don't post here.

Well, yes, of course, there are many who speak English, but the vast majority do not. Besides, fluency is a matter of degree. One might speak well enough to order food or ask where the bathroom is, but more in depth discussions or debates might be more difficult.

But the same question might be asked about other countries. For example, we've had threads posted about Pakistan and people being arrested and sentenced to death for blasphemy. Why has no one from Pakistan come here to RF to defend their government and give their side of the story? Maybe they don't really care about what the posters of RF think of them that they'd bother to take the time.

I think you're confusing me with Ronald Reagan.
I'm not him.

I know you're not, but he's an icon and a symbol of anti-communism, which is a philosophy which you obviously embrace.

Your (socialist) values differ from mine (libertarian).
So of course you'd be OK with life in the old USSR...strict social controls...no capitalism...the state runs everything...regulated
speech....no consumerism...a single political party...no voting.

Actually they did have voting. In fact, I was there when an election was taking place. I saw the polling centers and people lined up to vote. I had many honest, unregulated conversations with ordinary people. Sure, there were plenty who didn't like the system, but I saw them as no different than most Americans who complain about their government and the system we have.

Both systems have their faults and virtues. I never denied their faults, and frankly, neither did they. However, it's in the nature of capitalist propagandists to exaggerate the flaws of their enemies while denying the virtues.

Likewise, I've seen a recurring pattern of denial regarding the faults of capitalism, which leads to the misinformation which I've been directly addressing in this thread (such as the idea that it's shocking that a business wants to make money).

But your post is a deflection from your blaming capitalism for
the problems with Facebook. You don't consider the merits
of Facebook, ie, that we may say things that would be harshly
punished if aired in your alternative economic system.

Instead of making capitalism the problem...consider that
Facebook poses problems that can be solved without
abandoning economic liberty.

No I don't see it as a deflection. I was addressing the naïve trust and faith in capitalism which I believe to misguided. That appears to be the main problem here.

America's Founders cherished liberty, but they also knew that it requires a vigilant and aware populace in order to protect and safeguard liberty. However, what I'm noticing here are the consequences of what happens when people aren't vigilant and aware.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Well, yes, of course, there are many who speak English, but the vast majority do not.
Estimates range from 10 to 30 million.
And yet none post here....other than Hong Kong,
which has English as its official language.
But the same question might be asked about other countries. For example, we've had threads posted about Pakistan and people being arrested and sentenced to death for blasphemy. Why has no one from Pakistan come here to RF to defend their government and give their side of the story? Maybe they don't really care about what the posters of RF think of them that they'd bother to take the time.
Socialism is not the only affliction a country might have
that prevents free speech. Theocracy can too.
I know you're not, but he's an icon and a symbol of anti-communism, which is a philosophy which you obviously embrace.
Political anti-communism is different from opposing
communism as an economic system with political
conseences.
Should I say that you obviously embrace the views
of Mao, Stalin, & Pol Pot?
Actually they did have voting. In fact, I was there when an election was taking place. I saw the polling centers and people lined up to vote. I had many honest, unregulated conversations with ordinary people. Sure, there were plenty who didn't like the system, but I saw them as no different than most Americans who complain about their government and the system we have.
Which party won the voters' favor?
(It's hard to believe that voting matters
when only the Communist Party is legal.)
Both systems have their faults and virtues. I never denied their faults, and frankly, neither did they. However, it's in the nature of capitalist propagandists to exaggerate the flaws of their enemies while denying the virtues.
And its in the nature of socialists to criticize capitalism
as unsalvageable, while ignoring the misery of socialism.
Likewise, I've seen a recurring pattern of denial regarding the faults of capitalism, which leads to the misinformation which I've been directly addressing in this thread (such as the idea that it's shocking that a business wants to make money).
I see recurring patterns in socialists too.
The worst is to claim that only capitalist countries are socialist,
eg, Denmark....yet deny that socialist countries are socialist,
eg, N Korea. Very strange.
No I don't see it as a deflection. I was addressing the naïve trust and faith in capitalism which I believe to misguided. That appears to be the main problem here.
And I addressed the naive trust & faith
that socialism must replace capitalism.
America's Founders cherished liberty, but they also knew that it requires a vigilant and aware populace in order to protect and safeguard liberty. However, what I'm noticing here are the consequences of what happens when people aren't vigilant and aware.
Aye, too many people allow corruption, environmental degradation,
needless war, over-regulation, intrusive surveillance, etc.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Misconceptions about capitalism abound, especially
with socialists (who can see only its negative extremes).

Marx's view of capitalism was based on an honest review of human history and an observation of the consequences of what unfettered capitalism can actually do to a society. Of course, his view of capitalism was based on 19th century observations, when capitalism was at its worst. Since that time, our concepts of human liberty and human rights have been updated and more developed, and as a result, human rights have become more important than property. The Western liberal democracies answered the criticisms against capitalism and made far-reaching reforms. They realized that they had to change their ways if they didn't want to be overthrown or subverted into a dictatorship.

At least, there have been some capitalists and other philosophers who were willing to take an honest, objective look at capitalism - both the bad and the good. But that was before the 1980s and before Reagan took Americans into some kind of la-la land that capitalism is always good, creating the delusions and misconceptions were seeing today (as exemplified in this topic about Facebook).
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Marx's view of capitalism was based on an honest review of human history and an observation of the consequences of what unfettered capitalism can actually do to a society.
I don't doubt his honesty.
Only his judgments about human behavior.
He clearly doesn't understand this animal.
At least, there have been some capitalists and other philosophers who were willing to take an honest, objective look at capitalism - both the bad and the good.
Oh, if only socialists could take an honest look at any system.
There is a historical record of capitalist & socialist countries
that they never ever compare.
 

Regiomontanus

Ματαιοδοξία ματαιοδοξιών! Όλα είναι ματαιοδοξία.
Facebook is fun to hate & blame for increasing hostilities.
But I see them as more the symptom than a cause.
Still, I favor curbing monopolistic practices.

You need to read about how they design algorithms that reinforce the negativity and divisiveness. So it is NOT just a place where people chat with one another.
 
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