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Watchtower: Jesus is not "a god"!

Brian2

Veteran Member
Imagine God’s creation killing its creator … oh, isn’t God Spirit? Almighty Spirit… cannot die!

He came to His own and His own knew Him not. (and notice that the world was made through Him).

John 1:10He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him. 11He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God....
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
He came to His own and His own knew Him not. (and notice that the world was made through Him).

John 1:10He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him. 11He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God....
Imagine God being killed by his own creation?

But, Brian, what does the term, ‘Father’, mean?

‘He gave the right to become children of God’… So, he wasn’t God, then.

Why not: ‘He gave the right to become his children’, since they will be children of God, and you say Jesus is God!!!?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
So, let me say it again – the Holy Spirit IS NOT a separate entity, BUT it’s the divine energy of God’s very nature and the expression of God’s Power. The Holy Spirit IS the extension of God’s presence and therefore, you can say the Holy Spirit IS God Himself who can be represented (through His Holy Spirit) by anyone God chose to communicate with any individual or group on His behalf.

I agree the Holy Spirit is not separate from God, but is distinct from God. God is in the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is in God. This is the same with the Son, who is distinct and in the Father and the Father is in Him.
It is plain that the Holy Spirit is alive because He dwells with us, as Jesus and the Father also do through the Spirit in us.
The Spirit knows the mind of God so is more than just an it. The same with our spirit who knows our mind. Our spirit is distinct from our mind and body and is part of us, just as God's spirit is part of Him.

I don’t know what can ‘becomes more cloudy’ when it’s
CLEARLY stated by God Himself that no man can see Him and live! It was also CLEARLY stated by Jesus himself that you have never heard His voice or see His form! So, tell me, which part of Exodus 33:20 and John 5:37 that you find ‘becomes more cloudy’???

The truth of any scripture is NOT about what you or anyone think, the truth is about what God Almighty and His prophets said in that scripture!

So you deny that the Israelite elders saw God, but that is what the scriptures tell us.
The idea is to interpreted those scriptures without saying parts of them are wrong.
Imo the trinity model does a better job of it than yours.
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
I agree the Holy Spirit is not separate from God, but is distinct from God. God is in the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is in God. This is the same with the Son, who is distinct and in the Father and the Father is in Him.
Brian, haven’t you forgotten one relationship….

Is Jesus in the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit in Jesus? (Yes, I realise I’m weaponising you but it is so others can see that you don’t know egg you are talking about!)

If the Holy Spirit knows the mind of God then why doesn’t it know the mind of Jesus? (Go on, ask me what I’m talking about?)
It is plain that the Holy Spirit is alive because He dwells with us, as Jesus and the Father also do through the Spirit in us.
Tuh!!! You are kidding, right? You are kidding that you think you are confessing that the Holy Spirit is alive …. You really think you said something profound … ???? You think you are disagreeing with something no one ever said!!! You must be just fishing for a claim that you think is unique to trinity!!!!
The Spirit knows the mind of God so is more than just an it. The same with our spirit who knows our mind. Our spirit is distinct from our mind and body and is part of us, just as God's spirit is part of Him.
(underlined part) No! Our Spirit IS OUR MIND!!!

If you think so, show how the ‘two’ differ: How is our Mind different from our Spirit?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
The Scripture/OT said, No man can by any means redeem his brother or give to God a ransom for him.” – Psalm 49:7

So, apart from the fact that Jesus himself has never heard or knew the NT, do you think Jesus will go against the OT, the scripture he knew very well and often quote from??

Jesus understood the scriptures.
That scriptures is speaking about wealthy people having enough wealth to give a ransom for someone. It is God who sent Jesus to be a ransom and Jesus did it.
No man can ransom another even with his own life because if he gave his own life he would just be dying for his own sins.
Jesus was the lamb of God, the spotless sacrifice who is valued above us all and gave His life for us all so that we could share in His eternal life. Haven't you real Isa 53.

It’s NOT about what I or anyone believe, it’s what Jesus himself said in Luke 24:39 !! Are you dismissing what Jesus said in Luke 24:39??

I have read that and I believe it and also believe the other scriptures that tell us that Jesus died on the cross and rose bodily from the dead. That is why Jesus said what He did at Luke 24:39.

Of course only the words of Jesus and the Words of God matter
in the NT!! The words of others only matter when their words are in alignment with the words of Jesus or/and the Words of God Almighty.

Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
Jesus said this and you refuse to believe the witness they left us in the scriptures.

Only God Almighty can choose and make you His prophet. Can anyone be the Personal Advisor to the President of the United States just because that ‘anyone’ and/or his cronies claimed so ?? It would be foolish for anyone to believe and accept that ‘anyone’ when the US President himself have not chosen and appoint that ‘anyone’ as his personal advisor. Likewise, Paul is like that ‘anyone’.

Matthias was chosen by the apostles to replace Judas and Jesus chose Paul.
That was witnessed by Ananias and the early church (Acts 9:17) with a miracle when Ananias was sent to Saul.

The Bible/NT you have today is NOT God’s Words. It’s the words of the authors based on their understanding at the time of writing/translating and it contains the words of someone who heard from someone who heard from someone who heard from someone……… who heard from the eyewitnesses.

I believe the authors of the New Testament were the ones that the early Church said they were and that all the gospels and other writings (except John's Gospel) were written before 70 AD.
Why do you want to believe the historians who deny the prophecy of Jesus about the Temple and say the gospels were written after 70AD and by people who did not know Jesus or about Him first hand from witnesses as Luke did?
So you have taken it on yourself to pick and choose from the New Testament what you want, based on what you think is probably right.

How can you even say the Bible you have today is the words of God when you can find additions/fabrications in the Bible you have today which even the Christian scholars will attest to that fact!

The thousands of manuscripts meant that scholars could actually find the additions and mistakes and that is why the newer versions have these removed or changed back or noted.

All prophets are saviors in their respective times but they cannot save anyone they wish but ONLY those who listen and believe in their preaching. God is the ONLY True Savior as ONLY He can save anyone He wishes.

Saying Jesus is your ONLY savior is taking away the glory and the exclusive rights of forgiving from God and giving it to someone else which Jesus himself will avoid and that’s why Jesus said, “For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you” – Matthew 6:14. Clearly, Jesus is saying ONLY God is the True Savior as ONLY God can truly forgive you, NOT him or any man.

Jesus does the judging and according to the Father's will.
God made the world through His Son.
God brought salvation to the world through Jesus.
1 Peter 2:24
and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
Luke 19:10
For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Isa 49:6 “It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”
John 4:42
and they were saying to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world.”
Titus 2:13
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

As I said Hebrews 1 is NOT the Words of God nor the words of His prophet, Jesus. Saying God Almighty could not create anything without the help of Jesus is blasphemy which shows how ‘lost’ Trinitarians like you are!!

Nobody ever said God could not create the world without the help of Jesus. You are making that up. BUT God has said that is what He did and even the gospels say that the world was made through Him.
Johnb 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
But I guess you just pick and choose what you want to believe.

Jesus said he by himself can do nothing which dismissed the Jews' claim of him as God. And because Jesus, by himself can do nothing, obviously everything he does was shown by God!! Who else??! You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to understand that!!

Jesus can do and does everything that the Father does. Jesus just waits for the authority to do it from His Father.

Jesus NEVER referred to himself as ‘The Word’ nor has he ever implied he’s God the Son, but
more often than not he referred to himself as ‘the son of man’ and yet Christians like you believe Jesus is ‘The Word’ and God the Son! In addition to that, I have never come across a Christian who will refer to Jesus as the ‘son of man’ even when Jesus referred to himself as 'son of man' more than he ever referred to himself as 'son of God'!!


I don't refer to the Son of Man as God the Son. I do use Son of God and know that means that He has the same nature as His Father.

So, really, it's NOT me but rather it’s Christians like you who took ‘the Bible, and start cutting bits out till you have what you want’ !!

Did I? I don't remember doing that. But I do remember you telling me that you do that.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Imagine God being killed by his own creation?

But, Brian, what does the term, ‘Father’, mean?

‘He gave the right to become children of God’… So, he wasn’t God, then.

Why not: ‘He gave the right to become his children’, since they will be children of God, and you say Jesus is God!!!?

The human Son of God was killed by His own creation and we share in His eternal life and so He is my Father, just as His Father also is my Father and the Holy Spirit gives me life also and is my Father.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Brian, haven’t you forgotten one relationship….

Is Jesus in the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit in Jesus? (Yes, I realise I’m weaponising you but it is so others can see that you don’t know egg you are talking about!)

Yes the Holy Spirit is in Jesus and Jesus is in the Holy Spirit and both the Father and Son come to dwell in a Christian when the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in a Christian.

If the Holy Spirit knows the mind of God then why doesn’t it know the mind of Jesus? (Go on, ask me what I’m talking about?)

I did not say that the Holy Spirit does not know the mind of Jesus. Does the scriptures speak about that?
There is one Spirit and the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ.

Tuh!!! You are kidding, right? You are kidding that you think you are confessing that the Holy Spirit is alive …. You really think you said something profound … ???? You think you are disagreeing with something no one ever said!!! You must be just fishing for a claim that you think is unique to trinity!!!!

I am just saying what the scriptures tell us. The Holy Spirit is alive and dwells in a Christian.

(underlined part) No! Our Spirit IS OUR MIND!!!
If you think so, show how the ‘two’ differ: How is our Mind different from our Spirit?

Is the Spirit of God the mind of God?
Why does 1Cor 2:11 say that our spirit knows our mind?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I think at that point in time, it really does not matter what Jesus said, the Jews are just finding excuses to hurt Jesus.
That is called "anti-Semitism" as the vast majority of Jews simply don't much care about dealing with Christianity.
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
The human Son of God was killed by His own creation and we share in His eternal life and so He is my Father, just as His Father also is my Father and the Holy Spirit gives me life also and is my Father.
That is so stupid only a screwed-up mind could make such a claim.

You are saying that ‘the human God’ was killed by his own creation.,.,. Ha ha ha…. Not even Greek mythology has such an absurd enactment…

I see also that you DARE NOT define what ‘Father’ means…. You are so afraid of the truth that your answer doesn’t even pass muster in a kindergarten.

You are saying that Jesus is your Father? And that you have eternal life? Jesus said that he WAS DEAD… but NOW is alive forevermore…. That is not a beginning to end ETERNAL LIFE…. If he was DEAD at one time die done time then his life cannot be eternal… But he says he is NOW ETERNALLY ALIVE… BECAUSE GOD made him IMMORTAL after GOD raised him to from BEING DEAD (the DEAD Jesus says he was but Trinitarians claim Jesus is lying because he wasn’t dead…. Who to believe???? Trinitarians or Jesus???…. Hmmmm…. Interesting?

And the Holy Spirit is your Father….!

I wonder where the scripture verses are that substantiates these absurd claims are? Hmmm… I’ve read the Bible many times and I’ve never read any such thing….

What I have read is that …. At the judgement seat Jesus WILL GIVE LIFE (and ETERNAL LIFE at that) TO THOSE HE CHOOSES AS WORTHY FOR HIS KINGDOM…. Those will be chosen from the SECOND RESURRECTION … and this act of ‘GIVING ETERNAL LIFE’ is why Jesus IS TO BE CALLED ‘Eternal Father’…

It is at the end of time that Jesus ‘becomes’ spiritual FATHER to those he chooses….

Brian, I’m not judging, but … Jesus MIGHT NOT BE YOUR FATHER if you continue to blaspheme the sacred position of God by usurping his son into that position….
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Hi @Brian2

Brian2 said : "The Spirit knows the mind of God so is more than just an it. The same with our spirit who knows our mind. Our spirit is distinct from our mind and body and is part of us, just as God's spirit is part of Him." (post #1443)
Soapy said : "Our Spirit IS OUR MIND!!! If you think so, show how the ‘two’ differ: How is our Mind different from our Spirit?"

Hi Brian2.

I agree with you that, in early Christian doctrine, the Spirit of God is not "our mind", but is, instead, something outside of and independent of mankind.

For examples :
The spirit of God It is different than our mind since it reveals things to the minds of mankind that mankind does not know. For example, the spirit can reveal the future to the mind of man.
The spirit of God gives knowledge to mankind that is not found in the mind of man nor in the memory of man. For example, the spirit can reveal information to the mind of man which man did not previously know.
The spirit of God gives understanding to mankind that was not in the mind and heart of man. For example, it can enlighten the mind of man to the better use of information the mind already has.

I believe you are correct that the Spirit of God is different than the mind of man and it is distinct from our individual minds and bodies.


Clear
φυφυφιφισιω
What the gobbledygook are you rareteartearing about, @Clear. …..!!!!!????

No one, not even Brian2, said the mind of God is ‘our mind’…..!!!!

You are way off kilter here…, I believe you are deluded and cannot read straight!

Read again what Brian2 said … and weep at your own crassness!

You may want to think about deleting that post to save your embarrassment!!!
 

JerryMyers

Active Member
I agree the Holy Spirit is not separate from God, but is distinct from God.
You are really delusional and confused, aren’t you?? If you said the Holy Spirit is NOT separate from God, then, you are saying the Holy Spirit is God and if the Holy Spirit is God, then, how can the Holy Spirit be distinct from God???!

So you deny that the Israelite elders saw God, but that is what the scriptures tell us.
The idea is to interpreted those scriptures without saying parts of them are wrong.
Imo the trinity model does a better job of it than yours.
The Israelite elders saw a representative of God!

The idea is TO BELIEVE the Words of God and the words of His prophet, Jesus in those scriptures WITHOUT dismissing their words in favor of the words of other people!!

The trinity model is a man-made model and that’s why no prophets of God, including Jesus, ever preached that FALSE trinity doctrine!
 

JerryMyers

Active Member
Jesus understood the scriptures.
Of course, Jesus understood the Scripture/OT which means he understood Psalm 49:7 very well, and that’s why he NEVER said he came to die for your sins, let alone, be a ransom. Can you show me where in your Bible did Jesus ever say or imply he came to die for your sin??

That scriptures is speaking about wealthy people having enough wealth to give a ransom for someone. It is God who sent Jesus to be a ransom and Jesus did it.
No man can ransom another even with his own life because if he gave his own life he would just be dying for his own sins.
What nonsense are you talking about??

Psalm 49:7 is NOT about wealthy people giving a ransom for someone, it’s saying no man can give a ransom to God!! No man can by any means redeem his brother OR give to God a ransom for him.” – Psalm 49:7.

So, don’t try to tailor-fit your misguided belief into the Scripture!!

Jesus was the lamb of God, the spotless sacrifice who is valued above us all and gave His life for us all so that we could share in His eternal life. Haven't you real Isa 53.
When John the Baptist saw Jesus and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!”, he could NOT have meant to say Jesus is the ‘sacrificial lamb’ as at that point in time, no one could have known Jesus will be falsely charged with blasphemy, put on trial (if you can call that a trial), and condemned to death by crucifixion!

Where and when did John the Baptist ever refer to Jesus as ‘the sacrificial lamb of God’?? No, he said ‘the lamb of God’, meaning one who is subservient only to his God, just as a lamb is a subservient animal to its master.

Your preconceived mind assumes John the Baptist said ‘sacrificial’ lamb when he never did, just as you assume Jesus was showing the wound marks of the crucifixion to his disciples when the scripture clearly said Jesus showed his hands and made no mentions of any wound marks.

As for Isaiah 53, well, that depends on which perspective you are reading Isaiah 53. The Jews have very good reasons to believe Isaiah 53 is NOT about Jesus – Isaiah 53 - A Jewish Perspective

I have read that and I believe it and also believe the other scriptures that tell us that Jesus died on the cross and rose bodily from the dead. That is why Jesus said what He did at Luke 24:39.
The fact is if Jesus himself implied he’s not dead and was very much alive in Luke 24:39, then, it really does NOT MATTER what others said in the other scriptures that said Jesus died on the cross and rose bodily from the dead, does it?? Do you think the words of others have more authority and credibility than the words of Jesus???

Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
Jesus said this and you refuse to believe the witness they left us in the scriptures.
What exactly did the witnesses say that you claimed I did not believe?? Can you be more specific??

Matthias was chosen by the apostles to replace Judas and Jesus chose Paul.That was witnessed by Ananias and the early church (Acts 9:17) with a miracle when Ananias was sent to Saul.
How can Paul be chosen by Jesus when Jesus NEVER knew or met Paul??

I believe the authors of the New Testament were the ones that the early Church said they were and that all the gospels and other writings (except John's Gospel) were written before 70 AD.
Why do you want to believe the historians who deny the prophecy of Jesus about the Temple and say the gospels were written after 70AD and by people who did not know Jesus or about Him first hand from witnesses as Luke did?
So you have taken it on yourself to pick and choose from the New Testament what you want, based on what you think is probably right.
I told you I believe in the true words of Jesus and the Words of God as recorded in the scripture and I believe the words of other people (including the historians) only and ONLY if their words are aligned to the words of Jesus and/or aligned to the Words of God. So, what’s your problem with that??

The thousands of manuscripts meant that scholars could actually find the additions and mistakes and that is why the newer versions have these removed or changed back or noted.
Point is, if you claim the Bible is the Words of God, then, how can there be a need to correct it in the first place???

Jesus does the judging and according to the Father's will.
God made the world through His Son.
God brought salvation to the world through Jesus.
1 Peter 2:24
and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
Luke 19:10
For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Isa 49:6 “It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”
John 4:42
and they were saying to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world.”
Titus 2:13
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
Which are the verses you quoted above you think to imply Jesus is God and which are the verses you quoted above are the words of Jesus or the Words of God Almighty??? PLEASE DO TELL!

Nobody ever said God could not create the world without the help of Jesus. You are making that up. BUT God has said that is what He did and even the gospels say that the world was made through Him.
I am making that up??!! You ARE SO delusional!!

YOU are the one who said God could not create the world without the help of Jesus!! In post #1425, you wrote,
I don't see that because everything was created through the Son (Heb 1:2--and notice it does say SON in that verse) that it is saying God could not do it by Himself.
Saying God could not do it by Himself IS saying God could NOT create the world without the help of Jesus!!
Really, how can anyone take you seriously when you are clearly lying through your teeth !!

Johnb 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
But I guess you just pick and choose what you want to believe.
To understand John 1:10 in context, you need to read John 1:6-10. In that passage, John the Baptist was NOT talking about Jesus as the creation of Jesus was only told in John 1:14 when the Command Word of God became flesh.

In John 1:6-10, John the Baptist was talking about God/Holy Spirit and God is light – “This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in Him there is no darkness at all” - 1 John 1:5.

So, John 1:10 is actually saying God was in the world, that is, through the Holy Spirit who was in all the prophets who came earlier, but the people rejected these prophets because they did not recognize God/the Holy Spirit in these prophets, although the world was made by God, that is, through the Command Word of God.

But I guess you dismiss the Greatness and Glory of God in favor of the words of other people!!

Jesus can do and does everything that the Father does. Jesus just waits for the authority to do it from His Father.
Correction - Jesus can do and does everything that the Father have shown him. The reason Jesus did not know when is ‘the Hour’ is because God did NOT show him.

I don't refer to the Son of Man as God the Son. I do use Son of God and know that means that He has the same nature as His Father.
Son of God does NOT mean he has the same nature as God, S/son of God is a reference to those who are led by the Spirit of God – even Paul knew that!

Did I? I don't remember doing that. But I do remember you telling me that you do that.
Of course, you don’t remember doing that because doing that has become part of you!

And can you show me where and when exactly did I tell you I did that?? Seems like lying through your teeth has also become a natural part of you!!
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Son of God does NOT mean he has the same nature as God, S/son of God is a reference to those who are led by the Spirit of God
Absolutely. I’ve been writing this for so long and you are the first to actually repeat that truth…

How many times have I posted:
  • Please define ‘Son of God’ from a spiritual point of view…!
and all the responses have been in terms of a human procreated ‘son of man - which is what Brian2 stated to you (‘Same nature as Father’).

Yes, a ‘Son of God’ is:
  • ‘He who is led by the Spirit of God’
  • ‘He who does the works of the Father’
In Philemon 1 (a lesser read book of the New Testament) it is outlined how the apostle Paul, while in prison, ‘in chains’, in Rome, I think, ADOPTED the run-away slave, Onesimus. Onesimus found spirituality following the teachings of Paul and liaised with Paul to:
  • ‘do the work of preaching that Paul set him to do’
  • ‘be led by the spirit of Paul (who was himself led by the spirit of God, God, the Father)
Paul adopted Onesimus as his Son and therefore Onesimus became ‘Son of Paul’ IN SPIRIT.

Notice also that this adoption would follow what is in the scriptures spoken of between God and Jesus:
  • ‘I will proclaim the LORD’s decree: He said to me, “You are my son; today I have become your father. (psalm 2:7)
  • “In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.” (Hebrews 5:5)
So the reflection is that Jesus was ‘adopted’ spiritually, by God, the Father, when it was demonstrated BY JESUS that he was being led by the Spirit of God. And this would have been AFTER JESUS WAS ANOINTED WITH HOLY SPIRIT AND POWER (Acts 10:38)… ‘Anointed’ meaning: ‘Set aside, sanctified, for kingship and priesthood…. To become ‘Christ’: ‘Anointed one’!

And, indeed, Jesus himself defended this claim, saying:
  • ‘Why do you say I blaspheme [dismissing the claim he claimed to be God] when I only said that God is my Father… if [you think I am not Son of God] then do not believe me BUT AT LEAST BELIEVE the works you see me do’ (paraphrased)
I’m pressing the point that Jesus’ WILL being the same as the Father’s WILL does not mean they are the SAME PERSON… which is what Trinitarians try to deny they are claiming… Trinitarians have a heavily convoluted mindset concerning this issue (in fact, nearly all things Spiritual!) and will deny anything they say in one place replacing fallacy with further equal fallacy. Brian2 intersperses truth with fallacy hoping to catch out naysayers against his version of the trinity farce… I urge you to not knee jerk saying he is wrong but point out the EXACT PART that is wrong…. (It’s an old trick which puts the unwary in so much problems later on in a debate!!! As I always say: ‘The best lies are 95% truth’ …the 5% lie persuades the unwary that the lie is truth!)
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Yes the Holy Spirit is in Jesus and Jesus is in the Holy Spirit and both the Father and Son come to dwell in a Christian when the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in a Christian.



I did not say that the Holy Spirit does not know the mind of Jesus. Does the scriptures speak about that?
There is one Spirit and the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ.



I am just saying what the scriptures tell us. The Holy Spirit is alive and dwells in a Christian.



Is the Spirit of God the mind of God?
Why does 1Cor 2:11 say that our spirit knows our mind?
This post had been collapsed … I wonder why (NOT)! It’s a load of tosh! Not even worth responding to! CLEARLY Brian2 is out of his depth in regard to the truth. Poor guy!
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
I believe if by OHCA church you are referring to the Roman Catholic church then you are wrong. There was the church in Jerusalem, the church at Antioch, the Churches Paul established, and the church in Alexandria. The only thing that distinguishes the Roman Catholic church is that it became the most powerful church.

There were those in Jerusalem who looked to James, who was a man of God, who kept the Law, and who didn't support Paul when Paul went to Jerusalem, and Paul was run out of town under the protection of Roman cohorts. Paul's false gospel of grace was on the other end of the spectrum from the message given by James, chapter 2. The term "Christian", was apparently a term originating in the Gentile Antioch, not Jerusalem.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hi @Soapy

Regarding your response in post #1450


1) There are no extra points awarded for uncivility in a debate

I don’t think your responses to individuals on the forum will be awarded extra points for mean-heartedness or uncivility.
You could simply point out that someone is confused or did not seem to understand your point.



2) I believe you are correct that the spirit of man is connected to the consciousness of the body

Having said that, I must admit that your claim that my comments were irrelevant to your point is correct. I misread your claim.

While my point that the spirit of God is not the same as our minds, (this was a claim made by another poster and NOT you) is correct, it was not relevant to your claim that the spirit in man is connected to their consciousness (i.e. their "mind").

I apologize to have misread and misunderstood your point.

Ironically, I actually agree with your claim that the spirit placed within each individual is inseparably connected with our consciousness (our “mind” as you described it) and our personality and our will.

For example, those individuals who are mean-hearted or uncivil in their minds and hearts and actions, simply reflect a spirit that is mean-hearted and uncivil.

If the early Christians were correct when they proclaimed that the goal of the creative work of God was to ultimately have a rational, living creature who was prepared to be a citizen of heaven and live in harmony and joy and civility with others, then individuals whose spirits continue to be mean and uncivil cannot be allowed into heaven with those who have learned Christian principles of kindness and patience and civility else the mean and uncivil spirits would ruin the joy and harmony which was to characterize heaven.


Clear
φυφυφυσιειω
 
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Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
I believe if by OHCA church you are referring to the Roman Catholic church then you are wrong. There was the church in Jerusalem, the church at Antioch, the Churches Paul established, and the church in Alexandria. The only thing that distinguishes the Roman Catholic church is that it became the most powerful church.

Muffled All of the churches you mention are the same Church they answered to Paul and thus Peter! Paul wrote his letters to all the churches you mentioned thus all of these Churches are united in belief all were Catholic all were "ONE"!
Paul; drank the blood of Jesus he ate the flesh of Jesus Paul was an Apostle he was a Christian! Just as Christians to this day still drink the blood of Jesus and eat his flesh!

27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.

Muffled you cannot SIN Against a SYMBOL! You CONDEMN yourself by eating symbolic flesh! To eat the Communion means COMMUNACATION! with God! Root word is Communication! To be in COMMUANACATION with a symbol is called IDOLATRY!
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
The fact is if Jesus himself implied he’s not dead and was very much alive in Luke 24:39, then, it really does NOT MATTER what others said in the other scriptures that said Jesus died on the cross and rose bodily from the dead, does it?? Do you think the words of others have more authority and credibility than the words of Jesus???

John 10:17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

Matthew 16:21 From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.

Matt 17:22-23 As they were gathering in Galilee, Jesus said to them, “The Son of Man is about to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill him, and he will be raised on the third day.” And they were greatly distressed.

Matt 20:17-19And as Jesus was going up to Jerusalem, he took the twelve disciples aside, and on the way he said to them, “See, we are going up to Jerusalem. And the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn him to death and deliver him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified, and he will be raised on the third day.”

Which are the verses you quoted above you think to imply Jesus is God and which are the verses you quoted above are the words of Jesus or the Words of God Almighty??? PLEASE DO TELL!

They are about Jesus being our saviour.

Luke 19:10
For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Isa 49:6 “It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”



I am making that up??!! You ARE SO delusional!!
YOU are the one who said God could not create the world without the help of Jesus!! In post #1425, you wrote,

Saying God could not do it by Himself IS saying God could NOT create the world without the help of Jesus!!
Really, how can anyone take you seriously when you are clearly lying through your teeth !!

This is what I said, below. It is easily misread and I had to read it a few times to realise what it said. I think it is the bracketed bit that messes up the flow. It actually says "I don't see anyone taking glory from anyone else. I don't see that because everything was created through the Son, that it is saying God could not do it by Himself"
""I don't see anyone taking glory from anyone else.
I don't see that because everything was created through the Son (Heb 1:2--and notice it does say SON in that verse) that it is saying God could not do it by Himself.""



Of course, you don’t remember doing that
because doing that has become part of you!

And can you show me where and when exactly did I tell you I did that?? Seems like lying through your teeth has also become a natural part of you!!

Just so we remember what it is we are talking about here I have shown below what I was commenting on.
""So, really, it's NOT me but rather it’s Christians like you who took ‘the Bible, and start cutting bits out till you have what you want’ !!""
So why do you deny doing that and accuse me of doing it when you have told me you reject Paul and any other parts of the scriptures that you think contradict what Jesus said or what are the words of God.
I'm the one who says the whole Bible should be accepted and your the one who denies even that Jesus was killed on the cross and raised from the dead. I don't know why you do that when Jesus said that He would be killed and raised to life again on the third day.
 
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Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hi @Dogknox

I see you have re-engaged this thread. We still have the following issues to resolve from post #1423.


1) HOW DOES ONE JUSTIFY “LYING FOR GOD”?


Dogknox20 said : “The Watch Tower ADDED the letter "A" to the verse John 1 so it will say Jesus is "A" god!”
Clear responded : “The English sentence rendered “and the Word was a God” is a grammatically correct translation of John 1:1c "και Θεος ην ο λογος".
The source greek itself grammatically lacks the definite article and so their rendering IS, grammatically, how the source greek reads.
If you disagree with the theology, you are going to have to argue historical context, and not grammar.

However, YOUR offering of John 1:18 is unauthentic and a false rendering of the source Greek.
Your offering doesn’t merely add an “a”, but it adds entire false phrases of multiple words to the Greek that are not there in the source Greek. This is much worse than your complaint against others.

How do you justify offering readers a falsely rendered, inauthentic commentary as scripture while complaining that the Jehovahs Witnesses offer a perfectly correct rendering of John 1:1c?
How does the fact that you are offering fake biblical text prove a grammatically correct sentence incorrect?

Dogknox20 responded : “There in NO scriptures in any Christian bible with the letter "A" in John 1! ALL ....”
Clear responded : “Your response did not answer the questions you were asked:
How do you justify offering readers a falsely rendered, inauthentic commentary as scripture while complaining that the Jehovahs Witnesses offer a perfectly correct rendering of John 1:1c?
How does the fact that you are offering fake biblical text prove a grammatically correct sentence incorrect?

Dogknox20 responded : "I post scripture.. NOT ONE of all the bible interpreters over Sixty (60) of them have said the letter "A" should be first before the word "God"!


No, you are NOT posting “scripture”.
There is no Greek source text of the bible that says : 1 John 18 No one has ever seen God. The one and only Son, who is himself God and is at the Father’s side—he has revealed him." (Dogknox, in post #1407).
Of THOUSANDS of Greek papyri and codices, NOT ONE says this.

You are posting a paraphrased commentary masquerading as scripture.

There are readers who notice this dishonest tactic.

This is much worse than you complain the Jehovahs Witnesses are doing.
1)You are offering readers scriptural commentary as though it was authentic scripture.
2)While you complain the grammatically correct rendering adds a single letter in the Jehovahs Witness translation, your paraphrase adds more than 50 letters that do not exist in the source text.



The questions you were asked still remain unanswered :
1) How do you justify offering readers a falsely rendered, inauthentic commentary as scripture while complaining that the Jehovahs Witnesses offer a perfectly correct rendering of John 1:1c?
2) How does the fact that you are offering fake biblical text prove a grammatically correct sentence incorrect?




2) HOW DOES ONE JUSTIFY MULTIPLE THOUSANDS OF MURDERS AND SLAVERY AND OPPRESSION OF ONES OWN ORGANISATION WHILE COMPLAINING ABOUT A MINISCULE NUMBER OF DEATHS BY ADHERANCE TO AN ARTICLE OF FAITH?

Clear said : "Dognox20, I asked the uncomfortable question of you : Why is the murder of thousands of innocents who were simply guilty of not being catholic or unwilling to act in conflict with their own conscience before God, more justifiable than an incredibly small number of individuals who die because they did not receive a blood transfusion?
What is your answer?

Dogknox20 responded : “There in NO scriptures in any Christian bible with the letter "A" in John 1! ALL ....”
Clear responded : “Your response did not answer the questions you were asked:
Why is the murder of thousands of innocents who were simply guilty of not being catholic or unwilling to act in conflict with their own conscience before God, more justifiable than an incredibly small number of individuals who die because they did not receive a blood transfusion?
Dogknox responded : “I post scripture.. NOT ONE of all the bible interpreters over Sixty (60) of them have said the letter "A" should be first before the word "God"!”

How does this attempt at redirection from the important question justify the murder of thousands of innocents?

Does your mind and heart work such that if you claim others offer a different but correct translation, that this justifies the Catholic organization murdering thousands of innocents?

How does this justification work in your mind?

The same question can be said of the Catholic doctrine in it’s policy of forcing thousands into slavery. How do you justify slavery?

The same question can be asked regarding the Catholic doctrine of the persecution of Jews.
How does one justify the taking of Children from their Jewish parents by force to force the children to be or at least act like they believe in Catholicism?

The same question can be asked of the Catholic doctrine of Thievery.
How does one justify taking the property of thousands of others in order to enrich their organization and themselves in the name of Jesus?

The question can be asked regarding your claim that all of these evils are and were committed by “The Church of Christ” (when, in fact, Jesus would have repudiated such acts)?

How does your mind and heart work that it thinks that all these historical horrors are morally superior to adding an “a” to a sentence in a grammatically correct form?



3) THE NWTESTAMENT IS GRAMMATICALLY CORRECT IN IT'S TRANSLATION OF JOHN 1:1C. CONTEXT AND NOT GRAMMAR WILL DETERMINE CORRECTNESS IN THIS CASE
Clear claimed : “The English sentence rendered “and the Word was a God” is a grammatically correct translation of John 1:1c "και Θεος ην ο λογος".
The source greek itself grammatically lacks the definite article and so their rendering IS, grammatically, how the source greek reads.
If you disagree with the theology, you are going to have to argue historical context, and not grammar”

Dogknox20 responded : “There in NO scriptures in any Christian bible with the letter "A" in John 1! ALL ....”
Clear responded : “Dogknox20. You are unable to read the Greek source text and this specific ignorance is one reason why you seem to simply repeat talking points and religious advertisements rather than approach the actual underlying greek source text.

Answer my simple questions and I will attempt to give you grammatical examples that you can understand, including examples where Bibles created by the Catholics have both added and subtracted the article in Greek, the same as you claim the Jehovahs Witnesses have done.”

Dogknox20 responded : “I post scripture.. NOT ONE of all the bible interpreters over Sixty (60) of them have said the letter "A" should be first before the word "God"!”



Dogknox20. I might as well point out what is obvious to all other readers but you seem oblivious to.

YOU DO NOT READ GREEK.
YOU, DO NOT KNOW WHAT THE SOURCE GREEK SCRIPTURES ACTUALLY SAY.
YOU CANNOT TELL AN ACCURATE FROM A FALSE TRANSLATION (Else, presumably, you would not have offered readers the various false texts you have offered)

The deep irony of this situation stems (partly) from the hypocrisy and the complaint of inaccuracy of another, group, while you are guilty of much, much worse.

While you complain that you cannot find any of 60 (sixty) interpreters who added the “a”, NONE of the THOUSANDS of Greek source texts adds the 55 letters you offered readers.

While you complain you cannot find a single English version (from 60) that has the “a”, you also cannot find a single Greek source text (from thousands that exist) that grammatically, lacks the “a”.


If any reader on the forum can find a single Greek codex of John 1:1c that grammatically, lacks the “a”, is anyone able to point it out?

Anyone?

Even a single codex from THOUSANDS that exist will do.



Dogknox, I do not understand, How are you able, in your mind, to justify complaining about another person offering grammatically correct sentence while you offer a completely inauthentic and erroneous and grammatically incorrect text and claim it is “scripture” when it is, obviously, NOT scripture.

I do not understand how you justify lying about the Jehovahs Witnesses and the numbers of children who have died from lack of blood transfusion and yet justify your own Churchs’ murder of thousands and thousands of innocents, the enslavement of populations, the oppression and the stealing from entire populations as a policy and doctrine.

It seems so blatantly hypocritical to me.

However, such actions do not merely reflect on a single person or on a single Christian movement. Instead, engaging in such actions often tends to affect other christianities in the eyes of individuals who are investigating Christianity for truth and for a lifestyle.

How do you think it affects the credibility of other Christianities when Christians either “lie for Jesus”, or are blatantly and obviously hypocritical in doing the very thing they complain others should be condemned for?

Can the complaint that “there is no ‘A’ “ in a text that you, yourself cannot read, actually justify doing damage to the Christian cause by lying and hypocrisy?


Clear
φυφυσεειδρω
 
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2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
John 10:17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

Matthew 16:21 From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.

Matt 17:22-23 As they were gathering in Galilee, Jesus said to them, “The Son of Man is about to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill him, and he will be raised on the third day.” And they were greatly distressed.

Matt 20:17-19And as Jesus was going up to Jerusalem, he took the twelve disciples aside, and on the way he said to them, “See, we are going up to Jerusalem. And the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn him to death and deliver him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified, and he will be raised on the third day.”



They are about Jesus being our saviour.

Luke 19:10
For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Isa 49:6 “It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”





This is what I said, below. It is easily misread and I had to read it a few times to realise what it said. I think it is the bracketed bit that messes up the flow. It actually says "I don't see anyone taking glory from anyone else. I don't see that because everything was created through the Son, that it is saying God could not do it by Himself"
""I don't see anyone taking glory from anyone else.
I don't see that because everything was created through the Son (Heb 1:2--and notice it does say SON in that verse) that it is saying God could not do it by Himself.""





Just so we remember what it is we are talking about here I have shown below what I was commenting on.
""So, really, it's NOT me but rather it’s Christians like you who took ‘the Bible, and start cutting bits out till you have what you want’ !!""
So why do you deny doing that and accuse me of doing it when you have told me you reject Paul and any other parts of the scriptures that you think contradict what Jesus said or what are the words of God.
I'm the one who says the whole Bible should be accepted and your the one who denies even that Jesus was killed on the cross and raised from the dead. I don't know why you do that when Jesus said that He would be killed and raised to life again on the third day.

The sign given would be the sign of Noah, 3 days and 3 nights in "the heart of the earth" (Matthew 12:40). Your on the "third day", comes from Hosea 6:2, which happens after Israel and Judah "acknowledge their guilt" (Hosea 5:15), which corresponds to Hosea 3:5. And it comes "after two days"/2 thousand years (Hosea 6:2). That hasn't happened as of this moment. Yeshua spoke in parables so that the wicked/lawless, would not understand. (Matthew 13:13 & Isaiah 6:9).

I
 
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