Eat the Rich

[Revoltingest]

Something new. We have tried "communism" and it didn't work. We tried capitalism and we see that it doesn't work. (Some see it, others bury their heads in the sand because they fear new things.)
And as long as we haven't found something better, regulate the hell out of capitalism, especially the corrupting influences.

Capitalism does indeed work IMO.
Alternatives, eg, socialism, have been dismal,
eg, N Korea.
Which socialist country would you prefer to
live in over USA, Canuckistan, Denmark,
N Zealand, etc?

 

[Heyo]

Capitalism does indeed work IMO.
Alternatives, eg, socialism, have been dismal,
eg, N Korea.
Which socialist country would you prefer to
live in over USA, Canuckistan, Denmark,
N Zealand, etc?

I would much prefer to live in Denmark or New Zealand over the US.
I don't assert that they are socialist countries, only that they are less capitalistic - which is a good thing.

 

[Revoltingest]

....regulate the hell out of capitalism....

This suggests oppressive regulation....regulation for its
own sake without regard to unintended consequences
& potential damage done.
I say regulate only where useful, ie,
demonstrable benefit exceeding the cost.

 

[Revoltingest]

I would say that capitalism is geared towards environmental destruction on the same grounds that you would say socialism is geared towards economic failure - it's what we see when we look at the record.

Socialism has also exhibited environmental destruction.
The Soviets were particularly notorious with their
cavalier attitude towards nuclear power.

 

[Revoltingest]

I would much prefer to live in Denmark or New Zealand over the US.
I don't assert that they are socialist countries, only that they are less capitalistic - which is a good thing.

It doesn't matter which capitalist country you prefer.
My favorite is Ameristan. None are perfect.
One picks the mix of pluses & minuses that suit one.

Why do you think they are less capitalistic than Ameristan?
According to one ranking source, NZ appears more so than USA.
(Ameristan has been curbing economic liberty for many decades.)
Index of Economic Freedom: Promoting Economic Opportunity and Prosperity by Country

 

[Nakosis]

Capitalism allows for and even requires to cut costs in order to maximize profit (for the capitalist). I.e. someone who doesn't pollute if it saves costs, is a bad capitalist. So, yes, capitalism has greed as its prime directive and corruption as a direct consequence.

There is a cost to every action. A cost to the planet, a cost to future generations, a risk of enforcement. A good business plan assesses all of the costs, all of the risks. This maximizes profit but also sustains this profit. A good capitalist weighs all of the costs, all of the risks to profit. The benefit of good capitalism is not intuitive. However it is known and is organized and needs to be taught. It has been discovered through much trial and much error but it exists.

Capitalism has self interest and profit which is accepted as a natural source of motivation. Self interest and profit do not equal greed.
I don't know where this misconception of greed being an instrumental part of capitalism came from, maybe Marx or Engels perhaps but they were wrong. Greed is not part of capitalism. It is the part of the nature of some of us.

Greed is destructive. To ourselves and to capitalism.

 

[Heyo]

This suggests oppressive regulation....regulation for its
own sake without regard to unintended consequences
& potential damage done.
I say regulate only where useful, ie,
demonstrable benefit exceeding the cost.

I'm pretty much against oppression - of people. I'm less scrupulous when it comes to businesses, especially when it helps against oppression (or other harm) of people.

 

[Heyo]

I don't know where this misconception of greed being an instrumental part of capitalism came from,

Gordon Gekko.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm pretty much against oppression - of people. I'm less scrupulous when it comes to businesses, especially when it helps against oppression (or other harm) of people.

I don't understand this.

 

[Stevicus]

Which greedy individuals oppose. Capitalism doesn't require greed to work. However yes, it is in some people's nature to be greedy. Socialism is not going to prevent that.

Socialists might advocate for a government with stronger teeth to deal with those capitalists who are more greedy and unscrupulous. Conservatives often talk of supporting law and order, except they go too soft on white collar crimes.

 

[Nakosis]

Socialists might advocate for a government with stronger teeth to deal with those capitalists who are more greedy and unscrupulous. Conservatives often talk of supporting law and order, except they go too soft on white collar crimes.

Conservatives are politicians not capitalists. They know how to get elected, not necessarily how to run a business.
Capitalism ought not to be a political platform. However both democrats and republicans position as if it is.

 

[Nakosis]

Gordon Gekko.

Douglas stated, "I'm not saying that. And my name is not Gordon. It's a character I played 20 years ago.

 

[Revoltingest]

Socialists might advocate for a government with stronger teeth to deal with those capitalists who are more greedy and unscrupulous.

I've no problem with greed.
But there should be useful laws & regulations.
Material violations should be prosecuted.
And this should apply to both in government & industry.
Socialists too often are soft on criminal behavior by government.

 

[Stevicus]

I've no problem with greed.
But there should be useful laws & regulations.
Material violations should be prosecuted.
And this should apply to both in government & industry.
Socialists too often are soft on criminal behavior by government.

Greed is an emotion similar to hatred. Society may not be able to do anything about the emotions, although perhaps they should implement greed crime legislation just like hate crime legislation. Anyone who commits a crime where the motivation is material gain should have extra penalties tacked on as a greed crime.

Socialists aren't soft on criminal behavior by government. A lot of government bureaucrats and military officers were arrested and purged for various reasons. Socialists are more than willing to police their own.

 

[Heyo]

Douglas stated, "I'm not saying that. And my name is not Gordon. It's a character I played 20 years ago.

Did I say Douglas? I said Gekko and I meant Gekko.

 

[Revoltingest]

Greed is an emotion similar to hatred.

No, greed has no enemy...no object of scorn.
It does not play out well in those of low morals,
but in the minds of smart ethical people, it
provides the best that society has to offer.

 

[Heyo]

There is a cost to every action. A cost to the planet, a cost to future generations, a risk of enforcement. A good business plan assesses all of the costs, all of the risks. This maximizes profit but also sustains this profit. A good capitalist weighs all of the costs, all of the risks to profit.

And he tries to minimize the risks by buying legislation. And when he can dump risk and/or cost on the community, he does so. (Privatising the profit and socialising the costs.) Capitalism is inherently immoral.

The benefit of good capitalism is not intuitive. However it is known and is organized and needs to be taught. It has been discovered through much trial and much error but it exists.

Good capitalism isn't.

Capitalism has self interest and profit which is accepted as a natural source of motivation. Self interest and profit do not equal greed.
I don't know where this misconception of greed being an instrumental part of capitalism came from, maybe Marx or Engels perhaps but they were wrong. Greed is not part of capitalism. It is the part of the nature of some of us.

Greed is destructive. To ourselves and to capitalism.

Yep. But the one who dies with the most expensive toys wins.

 

[Nakosis]

Capitalism is inherently immoral.

Good capitalism isn't.

Come'on, tell me how you really feel.

Yep. But the one who dies with the most expensive toys wins.

Wow, never really realized what a dark outlook you have before.

 

[Nakosis]

Did I say Douglas? I said Gekko and I meant Gekko.

Which was a fictional character played by Douglas.

 

[Revoltingest]

And he tries to minimize the risks by buying legislation. And when he can dump risk and/or cost on the community, he does so. (Privatising the profit and socialising the costs.) Capitalism is inherently immoral.

And yet, despite claims of inherent immorality of capitalism,
it yields better results than every single attempt at socialism
in all of history.
Moreover, socialism has the emergent property of oppression
because it requires far more power of government over people
in order to prevent all free economic association. Without that,
capitalism would arise because of the basic human tendency
to want more & to trade with others. Allow that, & socialism
would dissolve. Socialism is inherently miserable. This is borne
out in the most faithful of all socialist regimes...

How many people flee the yoke of capitalism to the worker's
paradise of N Korea or Cuba?