Bahai position/methodology on Hadith

[TransmutingSoul]

Nothing about ahadith, authentication based on positive, non contradictory statements about Muhammed etc?

I did not find anything in the writings about Hadith, so far and that was surprising.

Will have to search harder, as I was under the impression there was guidance. It would be good to know now. It would be good to know if the position that loverofhumanity states above is from the writings, it is what I also understood, so did I get this understanding from the writings, or other Baha'i thoughts?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This is a quote by Abdul-Baha regarding only following the texts not narratives or stories which hadiths are.

Thou hast written concerning the pilgrims and pilgrim's notes.
Any narrative that is not authenticated by a Text should not be
trusted. Narratives, even if true, cause confusion. For the people of
Baha, the Text, and only the Text, is authentic." (Translated extract
from a previously-untranslated Tablet of 'Abdu'l-Bahá)

Yes this would be a valid and official way to look at Hadiths, if they do not reflect the Quran, then they can not be validated.

There may also be more guidance, the issue is the words we use in our search.

I see Narrative is good.

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

@InvestigateTruth

I would like to clarify the difference in your representation of the Bahai position and @loverofhumanity 's presentation. If you have time.

Please cite Bahai sources for these positions if you dont mind.

Basically to understand the Bahai position, we differentiate between Authentic and inaccurate vs false.

I mean, to Bahais only Bahai writings and the Quran are certainly perfectly preserved.

Thus, if a Hadith is quoted in the Bahai Writings, to Bahais it is a correct Hadith. It does not necessarily mean, it is an exact word to word saying of the Prophet. But it means, at least the Prophet said something like this. Just as for example, when Bahai Writings quote the Bible, it does not mean necessarily it is word for word accurate, but overall it is truth. This is what Abdulbaha wrote about authenticity.
Now, in addition to Hadithes which are quoted in Bahai writings, if a Hadith is confirmed by the Quran (I.e. it is based on the Quran), it would be considered true hadith. However, we don't have such instruction in Bahai faith as how to authenticate a Hadith. Hope this clarifies it.
So, officially speaking, if a Hadith is known to be confirmed with Quran, a Bahai would not say, this is a false Hadith. It is a true Hadith, however it may not have been perfectly preserved as the original words that came out of the mouth of Prophet. On the other hand, Bahais also consider words of Shia Imams as truth, if they are confirmed with the Quran or Bahai writings. So, to Bahais it makes no difference if a Hadith is from Sunni or Shia source.

 

[firedragon]

Basically to understand the Bahai position, we differentiate between Authentic and inaccurate vs false.

I mean, to Bahais only Bahai writings and the Quran are certainly perfectly preserved.

Thus, if a Hadith is quoted in the Bahai Writings, to Bahais it is a correct Hadith. It does not necessarily mean, it is an exact word to word saying of the Prophet. But it means, at least the Prophet said something like this. Just as for example, when Bahai Writings quote the Bible, it does not mean necessarily it is word for word accurate, but overall it is truth. This is what Abdulbaha wrote about authenticity.
Now, in addition to Hadithes which are quoted in Bahai writings, if a Hadith is confirmed by the Quran (I.e. it is based on the Quran), it would be considered true hadith. However, we don't have such instruction in Bahai faith as how to authenticate a Hadith. Hope this clarifies it.
So, officially speaking, if a Hadith is known to be confirmed with Quran, a Bahai would not say, this is a false Hadith. It is a true Hadith, however it may not have been perfectly preserved as the original words that came out of the mouth of Prophet. On the other hand, Bahais also consider words of Shia Imams as truth, if they are confirmed with the Quran or Bahai writings. So, to Bahais it makes no difference if a Hadith is from Sunni or Shia source.

What if the hadith is not from the prophet, but if you work hard on it, does seem to conform to the Qur'an?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What if the hadith is not from the prophet, but if you work hard on it, does seem to conform to the Qur'an?

Personally I would see no need to do that, for a Baha'i all we need in this age has now been given in the Baha'i Writings.

Would there be a reason you see that would need to be done?

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

Personally I would see no need to do that, for a Baha'i all we need in this age has now been given in the Baha'i Writings.

Would there be a reason you see that would need to be done?

Regards Tony

Its the question of a premise.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Its the question of a premise.

Thanks for that. Do you have an example of where this happens? Are you heading toward and example of what people have done in Islam?

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

What if the hadith is not from the prophet, but if you work hard on it, does seem to conform to the Qur'an?

I know Sunnis consider the words of Sahabah or companions of the Prophet as Hadith. Yes, I also consider it a guidance if it confirms with the Quran, but not necessarily a Hadith. I mean after all the purpose of using Hadithes is to learn about Islam.
something that might be beneficial here, to understand Bahai position is, to a Bahai, the words of a Prophet, such as Muhammad, is the Word of God, since a Bahai views Muhammad as Manifestation of God, and thus anything from Him is from God, not just the Quran. So, the only difference is, we believe the Quran was preserved perfectly. But let's say, if a person was present at the time of Muhammad, any word that he heard from the Mouth of Muhammad was word of God.
And another thing that might interest you, is, Bahaullah said that a believer never distorts or alters the words of God. In this sense my conclusion is, the Bahai position is, the Hadithes were never altered or became corrupted sinc they were words of God, and were meant to be a guidance to understand the Quran better. Of course it is possible those believers who had memorized the Hadithes and passed them down the chain to later generations did not remember every word perfectly, but they never intentionally altered or corrupted any Hadithes.

 

[firedragon]

Thanks for that. Do you have an example of where this happens? Are you heading toward and example of what people have done in Islam?

Regards Tony

Nope. I asked a question based on the premise of a Bahai in this thread. Maybe that premise is not relevant to you.

 

[firedragon]

I know Sunnis consider the words of Sahabah or companions of the Prophet as Hadith. Yes, I also consider it a guidance if it confirms with the Quran, but not necessarily a Hadith.

Its your personal belief, not Bahai official position. Am I correct? If its a Bahai position, please show the literature on this.

 

[firedragon]

And another thing that might interest you, is, Bahaullah said that a believer never distorts or alters the words of God. In this sense my conclusion is, the Bahai position is, the Hadithes were never altered or became corrupted sinc they were words of God, and were meant to be a guidance to understand the Quran better.

Well then you have to go against your position that a hadith that goes against the Quran or speaks ill of the prophet is not authentic. You are contradicting it by now stating that "a believer never distorts or alters the words of God".

Also, you are becoming a fanatical extremist Muslim who believes in all the hadith simply because "a believer said it".

Strangely contradicting Islam, and yourself. Please do clarify.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Its your personal belief, not Bahai official position. Am I correct? If its a Bahai position, please show the literature on this.

Correct, it is my conclusion, though early Bahais who lived at the time of Abdulbaha, referred to some of the sayings of Sahabah.
The Bab wrote, that human cannot even produce a Hadith. By this He meant, that a Hadith is essentially product of God. Only God can produce a Hadith, just as only God can produce a verse (Ayeh).
The Bab taught that God prevents anyone who wants to invent an Ayeh, or Hadith, and attribute it to God or His messenger. He wrote that, God is the master of events, and aware of all things, and has power over all things. Thus if someone wants to invent a verse or Hadith and falsely attribute that to God and His messenger, God will not allow that to happen, so that no believer can be misguided, as they trusted in God.

As regard to the sayings of Sahabah, I know a Bahai who used to be Muslim scholar who lived at the time of Abdulbaha. Abdulbaha asked him to write a book which includes Islamic sources, for a certain reason. The book includes some of the Sahabah words as Hadithes. So, this idea that Sahabah words can also be a legitimate guide is not just mine, but also well known Bahai scholars.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Well then you have to go against your position that a hadith that goes against the Quran or speaks ill of the prophet is not authentic. You are contradicting it by now stating that "a believer never distorts or alters the words of God".

Also, you are becoming a fanatical extremist Muslim who believes in all the hadith simply because "a believer said it".

Strangely contradicting Islam, and yourself. Please do clarify.

I knew this could be concluded from what I wrote.

Thus needs some clarification. First when I say Hadith in Islam, by definition I mean, the recorded sayings of the Prophet (or Shia Imams). Nothing else. So sayings of others about the Prophet is not a Hadith. A Hadith must always say, someone heard that the Prophet said such and such.
But if for example someone said that the Prophet married a 6 years old girl, it is not a Hadith. It is simply an statement of someone.
Secondly, I said a believer never alters the words of the Prophet. So, if a believer states I heard the Prophet saying such and such, thus is what I mean that was not altered.

Do you want to give me an example of an invented, false hadith, that someone heard, Prophet said such and such, but you can show it is a false hadith by comparing with the Quran?

 

[firedragon]

Correct, it is my conclusion, though early Bahais who lived at the time of Abdulbaha, referred to some of the sayings of Sahabah.
The Bab wrote, that human cannot even produce a Hadith. By this He meant, that a Hadith is essentially product of God. Only God can produce a Hadith, just as only God can produce a verse (Ayeh).
The Bab taught that God prevents anyone who wants to invent an Ayeh, or Hadith, and attribute it to God or His messenger. He wrote that, God is the master of events, and aware of all things, and has power over all things. Thus if someone wants to invent a verse or Hadith and falsely attribute that to God and His messenger, God will not allow that to happen, so that no believer can be misguided, as they trusted in God.

As regard to the sayings of Sahabah, I know a Bahai who used to be Muslim scholar who lived at the time of Abdulbaha. Abdulbaha asked him to write a book which includes Islamic sources, for a certain reason. The book includes some of the Sahabah words as Hadithes. So, this idea that Sahabah words can also be a legitimate guide is not just mine, but also well known Bahai scholars.

Could you please refer the Bab's writing on this? Its interesting.

 

[firedragon]

I knew this could be concluded from what I wrote.

Thus needs some clarification. First when I say Hadith in Islam, by definition I mean, the recorded sayings of the Prophet (or Shia Imams). Nothing else. So sayings of others about the Prophet is not a Hadith. A Hadith must always say, someone heard that the Prophet said such and such.
But if for example someone said that the Prophet married a 6 years old girl, it is not a Hadith. It is simply an statement of someone.
Secondly, I said a believer never alters the words of the Prophet. So, if a believer states I heard the Prophet saying such and such, thus is what I mean that was not altered.

Do you want to give me an example of an invented, false hadith, that someone heard, Prophet said such and such, but you can show it is a false hadith by comparing with the Quran?

Alright. So if a so called 'believer' said something he says he heard from the prophet, you say that it is by default a 'hadith' and is true?

About some example you wanted of a hadith that conflicts with the Qur'an, attributed to the prophet Muhammed himself, in Bukhari, it says "Lan Yufliha Kawmun wallaw amrahumoo amraathan" which means a country that makes a woman their ruler will never succeed". Thats in the last book.

And in the first book the narration attributed to the prophet goes "Ya Maasharan nasaai thasaddakunaa faanii areethukunna aksara ahlinnaar" where he is supposedly addressing a congregation of women saying the majority of those in hellfire are women, and then goes onto explain why with various things like being ungrateful to their husbands, being deficient in intelligence and the dheen itself.

And do not envy that which God has graced some of you over others with. For the men is a portion of what they earned, and for the women is a portion of what they earned. And ask God from His grace; God is knowledgeable in all things. – Quran 4:32

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Could you please refer the Bab's writing on this? Its interesting.

Yes, I read this in a Book called Seven Proofs, written by the Bab.
Here is a pdf:

https://bahai-library.com/pdf/b/bab_nicolas_terry_proofs.pdf

The book have seven sections, in the second sections, or the second proof, you can see some arguments about Hadith, aayeh. But also if you do word search on Hadith, you see quite some things about it.
Feel free, to quote anything interesting in the Book that you want.

 

[firedragon]

Yes, I read this in a Book called Seven Proofs, written by the Bab.
Here is a pdf:

https://bahai-library.com/pdf/b/bab_nicolas_terry_proofs.pdf

The book have seven sections, in the second sections, or the second proof, you can see some arguments about Hadith, aayeh. But also if you do word search on Hadith, you see quite some things about it.
Feel free, to quote anything interesting in the Book that you want.

Hmm. Ive read this. But not this particular version. Nevertheless, you should note that he is eternally referring to the ahadith ahlul baith. Not the ahadith assahabah, or even the ahadith arrasool wassahabah. He quotes 5th century hijri ahadith but is validating them based on the Shii methodology of al wahiyul ilaaheeyu.

It seems like you have not read your own book mate. But, thanks for engaging. I have learned a lot.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Correct, it is my conclusion, though early Bahais who lived at the time of Abdulbaha, referred to some of the sayings of Sahabah.
The Bab wrote, that human cannot even produce a Hadith. By this He meant, that a Hadith is essentially product of God. Only God can produce a Hadith, just as only God can produce a verse (Ayeh).
The Bab taught that God prevents anyone who wants to invent an Ayeh, or Hadith, and attribute it to God or His messenger. He wrote that, God is the master of events, and aware of all things, and has power over all things. Thus if someone wants to invent a verse or Hadith and falsely attribute that to God and His messenger, God will not allow that to happen, so that no believer can be misguided, as they trusted in God.

As regard to the sayings of Sahabah, I know a Bahai who used to be Muslim scholar who lived at the time of Abdulbaha. Abdulbaha asked him to write a book which includes Islamic sources, for a certain reason. The book includes some of the Sahabah words as Hadithes. So, this idea that Sahabah words can also be a legitimate guide is not just mine, but also well known Bahai scholars.

I can assure @firedragon that Bahai that can not read Persian, do not have this extent of knowledge, as we are unable to read the unpublished works.

I learnt early on that the knowledge about this Faith is limited by our lack of understanding of Persian and Arabic.

So @InvestigateTruth I guess what is being offered here is, that God does allow both Truth and Error to be revealed in Hadiths.

Truth being that a Hadith that reflects Truth is dependant upon the heart that reveals it and the further the heart from the source of the Quran, the darker the Hadith becomes.

Then what you would be saying is that we look for the Light, no matter where it shines from?

It would be good to see some translations of the Bab's works you have offered. The future will be great!

In the end the Hadith leads the hearts to their true innermost desires.

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Alright. So if a so called 'believer' said something he says he heard from the prophet, you say that it is by default a 'hadith' and is true?

Correct. That's what I have said.

About some example you wanted of a hadith that conflicts with the Qur'an, attributed to the prophet Muhammed himself, in Bukhari, it says "Lan Yufliha Kawmun wallaw amrahumoo amraathan" which means a country that makes a woman their ruler will never succeed". Thats in the last book.

And in the first book the narration attributed to the prophet goes "Ya Maasharan nasaai thasaddakunaa faanii areethukunna aksara ahlinnaar" where he is supposedly addressing a congregation of women saying the majority of those in hellfire are women, and then goes onto explain why with various things like being ungrateful to their husbands, being deficient in intelligence and the dheen itself.

And do not envy that which God has graced some of you over others with. For the men is a portion of what they earned, and for the women is a portion of what they earned. And ask God from His grace; God is knowledgeable in all things. – Quran 4:32

I wouldn't say these hadithes are false. It also depends on interpretation. If they appear to contradict Quran, then I would say, that interpretation was not intended by the Prophet.
Also, some Hadithes are Mutishabihat just as some verses of Quran are. So, the second Hadith talking about Hell, at least in Bahai view is not literal.
On the other hand, we have in the Quran, that Allah can teach interpretation of Hadithes:

"And so will your Lord choose you ˹O Joseph˺, and teach you the interpretation of Ahadees, and perfect His favour upon you and the descendants of Jacob—˹just˺ as He once perfected it upon your forefathers, Abraham and Isaac. Surely your Lord is All-Knowing, All-Wise.” 12:6

This verse tells me, interpretation of Ahadees is something that is known to God and He must teach what they really mean.
So, likewise in the generations of Ummah of Muhammad Allah taught interpretation of Ahaadees to only certain people such as Shia Imams. In our Generation it is taught to Abdulbaha and Shoghi Effendi in Bahai belief. So, we Bahais believe, we can only learn from them the correct interpretations.

But generally, Bahaullah said in Iqan, when Prophets say a word, they could mean 71 words, but only the prophets can explain each meaning or interpretation.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Alright. So if a so called 'believer' said something he says he heard from the prophet, you say that it is by default a 'hadith' and is true?

About some example you wanted of a hadith that conflicts with the Qur'an, attributed to the prophet Muhammed himself, in Bukhari, it says "Lan Yufliha Kawmun wallaw amrahumoo amraathan" which means a country that makes a woman their ruler will never succeed". Thats in the last book.

And in the first book the narration attributed to the prophet goes "Ya Maasharan nasaai thasaddakunaa faanii areethukunna aksara ahlinnaar" where he is supposedly addressing a congregation of women saying the majority of those in hellfire are women, and then goes onto explain why with various things like being ungrateful to their husbands, being deficient in intelligence and the dheen itself.

And do not envy that which God has graced some of you over others with. For the men is a portion of what they earned, and for the women is a portion of what they earned. And ask God from His grace; God is knowledgeable in all things. – Quran 4:32

Interesting. I tend towards the fact that God guides our hearts, thus Hadith appear to appeal to both the capacities of our heart and our inherent nature that turns us away from that capacity.

I would not think those 2 x Hadith about women were born of the full light of God, but that is only my opinion of the Light reflected in those 2 quoted Hadiths.

Regards Tony