Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[CG Didymus]

I think the video made its point about the inaccuracy of the New Testament. What Bart Ehrman said applies to the whole NT, not just the resurrection stories. It is not accurate history in any manner shape or form.

So it sounds like you, a Baha'i, agrees with Bart?

Okay, it's not accurate history. So those things didn't really happen. So why believe any of those stories? You know, like the virgin birth and that Jesus is a manifestation of God?

Yet, Baha'is believe some of it? Like the virgin birth? Why?

That's right, that is why I believe what I believe but since you are not a Baha'i you don't believe it. I can trust Baha'u'llah but I don't expect you to trust Him because you are not a Baha'i.

So, there it is again... No investigation... Baha'u'llah say the virgin birth really happened so you believe it. That's just swell.

No, the answers are not in the Baha'i Writings because the Baha'i Writings are a NEW Revelation from God. If you need the answers about older religions then you will have to go looking for them.

The Baha'i Faith does quote the Bible extensively. Abdul Baha and others have written books and talked about the connection and meanings and interpretations of Bible verses. Some Baha'i "answers" are available. But it is Abdul Baha that ignores the verses in Daniel that say to count the days from the start of the daily sacrifice being stopped and the abomination being set up and he starts counting the days, that get turned into years, from 457BC, the year the decree went out to rebuild Jerusalem. There should be an explanation why he did that.

 

[CG Didymus]

No bearing? You are possibly believing a false fulfillment of a major prophecy. When does it say the days start? It is with the stopping of the daily sacrifice and that thing about the abomination. There is a possible real event that fits that description. And we know when that was. But, for no reason, Baha'is start the counting of the days, that get turned into years, from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem in 457BC. Where do Baha'i get that from? How do Baha'is justify doing that? And why would they do that? Because they can make it end on the year The Bab declared himself in 1844. For Baha'is, a great year to end it. But it was not a good year to start counting from.

Major prophecy? No, it is not major at all. It is only major to you.
False fulfillment? 2300 years is the date. There are many ways to get to it depending upon how you interpret the prophecy and the Bible.

Anyone can try to use the Bible to try to prove whatever they want to believe, depending upon how they interpret the Bible, and as such the Bible is utterly worthless in proving anything.

Not a major prophecy? Okay, it doesn't matter that Baha'is use this to get to 1844, the year the Bab declared. Huh, I thought that was a big deal to Baha'is? How wrong I was. But anyway... Here's what Abdul Baha says...

In the eighth chapter of the Book of Daniel, verse thirteen, it is said: “Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary 42 and the host to be trodden under foot?” Then he answered (v. 14): “Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed”; (v. 17) “But he said unto me … at the time of the end shall be the vision.” That is to say, how long will this misfortune, this ruin, this abasement and degradation last? meaning, when will be the dawn of the Manifestation? Then he answered, “Two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.” Briefly, the purport of this passage is that he appoints two thousand three hundred years, for in the text of the Bible each day is a year. Then from the date of the issuing of the edict of Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem until the day of the birth of Christ there are 456 years, and from the birth of Christ until the day of the manifestation of the Báb there are 1844 years. When you add 456 years to this number it makes 2300 years. That is to say, the fulfillment of the vision of Daniel took place in the year A.D. 1844, and this is the year of the Báb’s manifestation according to the actual text of the Book of Daniel. Consider how clearly he determines the year of manifestation; there could be no clearer prophecy for a manifestation than this.​

He completely ignores the "the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation". How does that fit into the decree to rebuild Jerusalem? And that's okay with you? No, it's more like it is ignored by you. You don't want to personal investigate. You are happy in your ignorance. Fine. Too bad there is no Baha'i answer and reason why Abdul, "the infallible" Baha ignored it?

 

[CG Didymus]

Sorry but no. The Baha'i Faith is a new independent religion and it is not 'connected' to the religions of the past just because we believe in progressive revelation. And just because Baha'u'llah has fulfilled the prophecies of the older religions that does not connect it to the older religions.

Sorry but no? And then you say, "just because Baha'u'llah has fulfilled the prophecies of the older religions that does not connect it to the older religions?" Hmmm? You had to throw that last line in didn't you. You've set yourself up. So again, what were those prophecies? You know the ones about Kalki, Maitreya, and when and how Jesus would return and all those that are found in the Quran and the Hebrew Bible? How are they fulfilled?

 

[CG Didymus]

Jesus was called he Lamb and Baha'u'llah was the Glory of God.

If Jesus is the "Lamb" then it is the "Lamb" that Revelation has returning. So you have to make Baha'u'llah, somehow, into the Lamb. I think that is why one Baha'i tried to say that the Bab was the "Lamb that was slain."

 

[CG Didymus]

"I know about God because of what the God-inspired scripture says."

Yes, and every religion has their "inspired" Scripture... of course it is inerrant and infallible and literally true.

 

[CG Didymus]

In the end It matters not where the Baha'i got that from, as we have provided evidence that Christians had already come up with this date on many occasions.

I give the proof again CG and I can say I am sad that you still choose this line of argument in full knowledge of this.

Here it is in detail, I will link to a picture in the explanation given by Biblical Scholars.

Great Disappointment - Wikipedia

File:2300days.jpg - Wikipedia

File:Ezrachonology.jpg - Wikipedia

File:TwentySevenAD.jpg - Wikipedia

Regards Tony

This is Abdul Baha...

In the eighth chapter of the Book of Daniel, verse thirteen, it is said: “Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary 42 and the host to be trodden under foot?” Then he answered (v. 14): “Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed”; (v. 17) “But he said unto me … at the time of the end shall be the vision.” That is to say, how long will this misfortune, this ruin, this abasement and degradation last? meaning, when will be the dawn of the Manifestation? Then he answered, “Two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.” Briefly, the purport of this passage is that he appoints two thousand three hundred years, for in the text of the Bible each day is a year. Then from the date of the issuing of the edict of Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem until the day of the birth of Christ there are 456 years, and from the birth of Christ until the day of the manifestation of the Báb there are 1844 years. When you add 456 years to this number it makes 2300 years. That is to say, the fulfillment of the vision of Daniel took place in the year A.D. 1844, and this is the year of the Báb’s manifestation according to the actual text of the Book of Daniel. Consider how clearly he determines the year of manifestation; there could be no clearer prophecy for a manifestation than this.​

The question is... When did the daily sacrifice get stopped and the abomination get set up? There is a historical event that fits very well.

 

[Trailblazer]

So do we have a real messenger? There should be things we look at to check that, right?

Below are my criteria for a true Messenger of God. Of course these criteria cannot be used for a Messenger who came in recent times a Messenger we can study and know something about. It cannot be used for the Messengers/Manifestations of God of the past because we really have no way to know much about them, except Moses, Jesus and Muhammad.

The minimum criteria would be:

1. He had good character as exemplified by his qualities such as love, mercy, kindness, truth, justice, benevolence, gracious, merciful, righteous, forgiving, patient.

2. He believed he had been given a mission by God and did everything he could to see that it was carried out. He was completely successful before his death, and he accomplished everything that he set out to do.

3. He wrote much about God and God's purpose for humans both individually and collectively, or scriptures were written by others who spoke for him. He firmly believed that the work he was doing was for the Cause of God.

4. He had many followers while he was alive, and there are still millions who follow his teachings and gather in groups based on the religion he founded.

5. His followers have grown more numerous in recent times.

Other criteria he would have to meet is that his religion could not contradict or be in opposition to any of the world religions that are already established and he could not talk down any of those religions and say his religion is the only true religion from God.

So... how about by what he and the Baha'i Faith says? So I ask...

CG Didymus said: ↑

The Baha'i Faith says Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses were also manifestations. Were they? Did they really exist? Are the Bible stories about them accurate? Why did one religion need to have four manifestations? Plus, not one of them was the "perfect" reflection of God, so if they don't fit the description of a manifestation, why make them manifestations? Then, some sects in Hinduism have several incarnations of Vishnu, but Baha'is never mention them, only Krishna.

Were these people manifestations? Judaism and Christianity and maybe even Islam don't make them manifestations. Did they really exist? Sure, if you believe the Bible literally. But Baha'is don't. Then the Baha'i Faith says that a manifestation is a "perfect" reflection of God. These people were not perfect.

Then there's the Krishna problem... is he a manifestation or an incarnation as believed by some Hindus? Plus, he was said to be an incarnation of Vishnu... one of many Hindu Gods. And finally, Hindus believe there were several other incarnations of Vishnu. Baha'is don't seem to recognize them at all... only Krishna.

Can you tell me why it matters if these individuals were Manifestations of God or not? How would that determine if Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God or not? How would any of the questions you asked above determine if Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God or not?

You already know why Baha'is do not believe what Hindus believe and it make s perfect sense. (1) Hinduism has no original scriptures, only what mean said the teachings were many decades later and (2) what they did have has been misinterpreted by the Hindus and (3) given all the sects of Hinduism, how can anyone know what is the most accurate, closest to what was originally revealed?

Don't resolve them answer them. What is the Baha'i answer to these? "I don't care"? Is not a very good answer. But it seems to be your favorite answer. Which sounds a lot like "I don't know. And I don't care to know." Which reflects badly on your religion and its claim of "progressive" revelation. A belief that does connect all the older religions with the Baha'i Faith.

There is no "Baha'i answer" to these questions and all Baha'is will answer it in their own way. However, you won't see many Baha'is answering them, just me and Tony and maybe Duane (Truthseeker9).

Baha'is not not 'claim' progressive revelation. Just because we believe that there have been other revelations that preceded Baha'u'llah that does not mean we are obligated to explain them all!

Baha'is are under no obligation to explain anything about any other revelation except the Revelation of Baha'u'llah. Moreover, Baha'is have been enjoined to disregard the former revelations from God and focus on Baha'u'llah, Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation, and to whatsoever things He hath manifested.

“Our purpose is to show that should the loved ones of God sanctify their hearts and their ears from the vain sayings that were uttered aforetime, and turn with their inmost souls to Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation, and to whatsoever things He hath manifested, such behavior would be regarded as highly meritorious in the sight of God….

Magnify His Name, and be thou of the thankful. Convey My greetings to My loved ones, whom God hath singled out for His love, and caused them to achieve their objects. All glory be to God, the Lord of all worlds.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 172

 

[Trailblazer]

So it sounds like you, a Baha'i, agrees with Bart?

I absolutely do agree with Bart.

Yet, Baha'is believe some of it? Like the virgin birth? Why?

You already know why so why do you ask again? Because Baha'u'llah validated the Virgin Birth.

So, there it is again... No investigation... Baha'u'llah say the virgin birth really happened so you believe it. That's just swell.

How is anyone going to investigate that? Yes, as Baha'is we believe everything that Baha'u'llah wrote.

The Baha'i Faith does quote the Bible extensively. Abdul Baha and others have written books and talked about the connection and meanings and interpretations of Bible verses. Some Baha'i "answers" are available. But it is Abdul Baha that ignores the verses in Daniel that say to count the days from the start of the daily sacrifice being stopped and the abomination being set up and he starts counting the days, that get turned into years, from 457BC, the year the decree went out to rebuild Jerusalem. There should be an explanation why he did that.

There are some Baha'i answers available and you can read those in the Baha'i Writings.

I asked you a long time ago to stop asking me about the Daniel prophecy and you keep bringing it up again. Maybe you cannot help yourself but I am getting very close to not reading or answering one more of your posts. If that prophecy is that important to you then so be it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Not a major prophecy? Okay, it doesn't matter that Baha'is use this to get to 1844, the year the Bab declared. Huh, I thought that was a big deal to Baha'is? How wrong I was. But anyway... Here's what Abdul Baha says...

In the eighth chapter of the Book of Daniel, verse thirteen, it is said: “Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary 42 and the host to be trodden under foot?” Then he answered (v. 14): “Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed”; (v. 17) “But he said unto me … at the time of the end shall be the vision.” That is to say, how long will this misfortune, this ruin, this abasement and degradation last? meaning, when will be the dawn of the Manifestation? Then he answered, “Two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.” Briefly, the purport of this passage is that he appoints two thousand three hundred years, for in the text of the Bible each day is a year. Then from the date of the issuing of the edict of Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem until the day of the birth of Christ there are 456 years, and from the birth of Christ until the day of the manifestation of the Báb there are 1844 years. When you add 456 years to this number it makes 2300 years. That is to say, the fulfillment of the vision of Daniel took place in the year A.D. 1844, and this is the year of the Báb’s manifestation according to the actual text of the Book of Daniel. Consider how clearly he determines the year of manifestation; there could be no clearer prophecy for a manifestation than this.​

He completely ignores the "the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation". How does that fit into the decree to rebuild Jerusalem? And that's okay with you? No, it's more like it is ignored by you. You don't want to personal investigate. You are happy in your ignorance. Fine. Too bad there is no Baha'i answer and reason why Abdul, "the infallible" Baha ignored it?

I just told you I don't want to hear about this prophecy anymore so I did not read any of that.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This is Abdul Baha...

In the eighth chapter of the Book of Daniel, verse thirteen, it is said: “Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary 42 and the host to be trodden under foot?” Then he answered (v. 14): “Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed”; (v. 17) “But he said unto me … at the time of the end shall be the vision.” That is to say, how long will this misfortune, this ruin, this abasement and degradation last? meaning, when will be the dawn of the Manifestation? Then he answered, “Two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.” Briefly, the purport of this passage is that he appoints two thousand three hundred years, for in the text of the Bible each day is a year. Then from the date of the issuing of the edict of Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem until the day of the birth of Christ there are 456 years, and from the birth of Christ until the day of the manifestation of the Báb there are 1844 years. When you add 456 years to this number it makes 2300 years. That is to say, the fulfillment of the vision of Daniel took place in the year A.D. 1844, and this is the year of the Báb’s manifestation according to the actual text of the Book of Daniel. Consider how clearly he determines the year of manifestation; there could be no clearer prophecy for a manifestation than this.​

The question is... When did the daily sacrifice get stopped and the abomination get set up? There is a historical event that fits very well.

CG, I can offer you no more than the Christian Scholars offerd. The link was provided, did you look up what William Miller and others found?

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Sorry but no? And then you say, "just because Baha'u'llah has fulfilled the prophecies of the older religions that does not connect it to the older religions?" Hmmm? You had to throw that last line in didn't you. You've set yourself up.

Set myself up for what? Of course Baha'u'llah fulfilled the prophecies of the older religions that were revealed in the Age of Prophecy, but we are now living in the Age of Fulfillment so the connection is no longer necessary.

So again, what were those prophecies? You know the ones about Kalki, Maitreya, and when and how Jesus would return and all those that are found in the Quran and the Hebrew Bible? How are they fulfilled?

In this page a links to other pages concentrating on prophecies contained in some of the major Religious and Spiritual traditions of the World. Also I have included some predictions of Nostradamus and there is an article on 2012 which is the special date when the Mayan calendar comes to an end. In each section I give some background to the prophecies from the respective World Religions and also discuss some of their social and political implications.

1./ Jewish Prophecies and Messianic Expectation

2./ Christian Prophecies and the Second Coming of Christ

3./ Muslim Prophecies and the Appearance of Imam Mahdi

4./ Hindu Prophecies and the Incarnation of the Kalki Avatar

5./ Buddhist Prophecies and the Coming of Maitraya

6./ Zoroastrian Prophecies for the Coming of the Saoshyant

7./ Prophecies of Nostradamus

8./ Native American Prophecies

9./ Norse Prophecies

10./ 2012 and the end of the Mayan Calendar

Prophecies from World Religion and other sources
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“Each of the world's major religions contains Messianic prophecies.

Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, the Zoroastrian religion and even the Native American religions all foretell the coming of a Promised One. Each of the Founders of these great religions either promised to personally return himself, to send another like himself or in some instances.... the Founder promised to do both.”

Christians await the return of Christ and the coming of "another comforter." The Jewish scriptures foretell the coming of "another Prophet" like Moses and the return of Elijah from heaven. Many Moslems await the appearance of Mahdi and Meseeh. Krishna promised to personally return from age to age. Buddha said that he was not the first Buddha ever to appear and that another "supremely enlightened" Buddha was still yet to come. Zoroastrian prophecies foretell the coming of a "World-renovator." Native American prophecies foretell the coming of a bearded white man from the east who will bring teachings which will restore the hoop of unity.

Each religion, in its own way, has foretold the coming of a great 'religion restoring', 'world uniting', 'peace bringing' Messiah.

For centuries, people from all over the world have been hoping and praying that they will be the generation which will witness the appearance of their Promised One. Not many have considered the possibility that these prophecies from the various religions might actually all be foretelling the exact same event.

Members of the Baha'i Faith believe that in the middle of the last century these prophecies actually were fulfilled and that the Promised One truly did appear.

Baha'u'llah, the Prophet founder of the Baha'i Faith, claims to be the Promised One whose coming was explicitly foretold, not only in the Old and the New Testaments.... but also in the prophecies of the Hindu, Buddhist, Zoroastrian, Islamic and other religions.

If Baha'u'llah truly is the Promised One then His appearance is one of the greatest events of human history. Are Baha'u'llah's claim true? How can we know for certain? Just take a look at some of the proofs and prophecies... and then decide for yourself.”

Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage

 

[Trailblazer]

If Jesus is the "Lamb" then it is the "Lamb" that Revelation has returning. So you have to make Baha'u'llah, somehow, into the Lamb. I think that is why one Baha'i tried to say that the Bab was the "Lamb that was slain."

No I do not have to make Baha'u'llah into the Lamb. Maybe you do but I don't because I know who Baha'u'llah was.

Jesus is not returning, period, but I am not going to cover that ground again.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, and every religion has their "inspired" Scripture... of course it is inerrant and infallible and literally true.

No, the only scripture that is infallible and inerrant is the scripture written by a Manifestation of God.

That eliminates all scriptures except what was written by the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No, the only scripture that is infallible and inerrant is the scripture written by a Manifestation of God.

That eliminates all scriptures except what was written by the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Really? How do you test your scripture? Most theists do not know how to do so.

 

[Trailblazer]

Really? How do you test your scripture? Most theists do not know how to do so.

I never said it could be tested. How do you think that would be possible?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I never said it could be tested. How do you think that would be possible?

You implied that it was possible. If you cannot test it there is no way that you are justified in claiming that it is infallible.

 

[Trailblazer]

You implied that it was possible. If you cannot test it there is no way that you are justified in claiming that it is infallible.

I have no idea what you mean by testing.

 

[CG Didymus]

CG, I can offer you no more than the Christian Scholars offerd. The link was provided, did you look up what William Miller and others found?

Regards Tony

Again... The question is... When did the daily sacrifice get stopped and the abomination get set up? There is a historical event that fits very well. What does that refer to? If you want to use 457BC as the starting date how does the stopping of the daily sacrifice and the abomination fit in?

 

[Tiberius]

What would your criteria be? For me he isn't a messenger because what he says does not agree with what God says.

What would count as criteria that someone was receiving information from God? Well, if they clearly and unambiguously said something which they couldn't have possibly known at the time. I've used this example before:

"And the Earth moved in a great circle around the sun, held in place by the sun's mass. And the circle was not perfect, but was longer in one direction than the perpendicular, and the passage of the Earth swept out equal areas in equal times. And the sun shone with the light of its tiniest parts coming together."
​

It describes very nicely the following facts:

1. the Earth has an elliptical orbit
2. the sun's mass giving it gravity
3. Kepler's second law of planetary motion
4. the sun glows because of nuclear fusion.

There is no way for people living a thousand years ago to know any of this stuff. And it is written in simple language that people back then could have understood. So if someone who could not have known this had said it, then I'd take it as pretty good evidence.

 

[Tiberius]

There's a lady I know who has this pendulum she holds in her hand and let's it dangle. When the spirit of her grandmother comes to visit, she asks her yes and no questions. If the pendulum goes around in circles, the answer is yes. If side to side, it is no. And I'd imagine there's lots of other ways people have invented to communicate with the spirit world. Is that proof it exists? I wouldn't be surprised if TB and other Baha'is say "no" that this is fake.

It's called the ideomotor effect, and it means nothing. Ideomotor phenomenon - Wikipedia