• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Bahai position/methodology on Hadith

firedragon

Veteran Member
"Just as the Quran is a source of religion, so is Hadithes." was a position of a Bahai in this forum. I was intrigued to understand the Bahai position on ahadith.

1. Do Bahai's have an official position on ahadith?
2. Do Bahai's accept and adopt all the hadith or do they filter based on their own methodology?
3. Or, do Bahai's use traditional or modern methodologies developed by Muslim scholarship?

I have seen some atheists use hadith to insult Islam and Muhammed as if they believe in hadith. Christians do that too. Not all, but some. So do others. But this particular one came as a surprise to me because I have not known Bahai's trying to authenticate hadith as a whole, even equating it to the Qur'an which even Muslims do not do. Generally. Thus this question.

Thanks in advance.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Hi firedragon.

As you know not all hadiths are authentic so it goes without saying that just as Muslim scholars filter and distinguish what they consider authentic from those viewed as fabricated, so too did the Bab and Baha’u’llah but as considered Manifestations of God though.

So for example, if a Hadith is quoted in writing and signed by either the Bab or Baha’u’llah, it is automatically elevated to the Word of God.

Baha’is only adhere to the official position on any given Hadith such as what the Manifestations have quoted in Their recorded tablets and sealed with Their authority.
Bahá’ís cannot filter hadiths but are bound to follow whatever the Manifestations have written.

All in all, Baha’is have no authoritative position on hadiths or the Quran or any Holy Book except what the Manifestations have revealed and the appointed Successors Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi.

Baha’is are forbidden to authoritatively interpret text but may have individual views. We have no interpreters in the Bahá’í Faith anymore after the passing of Shoghi Effendi.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Hi firedragon.

As you know not all hadiths are authentic so it goes without saying that just as Muslim scholars filter and distinguish what they consider authentic from those viewed as fabricated, so too did the Bab and Baha’u’llah but as considered Manifestations of God though.

So for example, if a Hadith is quoted in writing and signed by either the Bab or Baha’u’llah, it is automatically elevated to the Word of God.

Baha’is only adhere to the official position on any given Hadith such as what the Manifestations have quoted in Their recorded tablets and sealed with Their authority.
Bahá’ís cannot filter hadiths but are bound to follow whatever the Manifestations have written.

All in all, Baha’is have no authoritative position on hadiths or the Quran or any Holy Book except what the Manifestations have revealed and the appointed Successors Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi.

Baha’is are forbidden to authoritatively interpret text but may have individual views. We have no interpreters in the Bahá’í Faith anymore after the passing of Shoghi Effendi.

Well, that's a decent post. So your contention is that a hadith quoted by Bab, Bahaullah or Baha or Effendi are by default authentic based on authority. Well, that's similar to the Nizari, Imami, positions. Thats fine.

1. Is this an official, Bahai position?
2. How about the thousands of ahadith never mentioned by either one of them? Whats the Bahai position on that?

@loverofhumanity pls be kind enough to provide bahai sources for the positions.

Thanks for your post. I really appreciate it.
 
Last edited:

firedragon

Veteran Member
Well, that's a decent post. So your contention is that a hadith quoted by Bab, Bahaullah or Baha or Effendi are by default authentic based on authority. Well, that's similar to the Nizari, Imami, positions. Thats fine.

1. Is this an official, Bahai position?
2. How about the thousands of ahadith never mentioned by either one of them? Whats the Bahai position on that?

Thanks for your post. I really appreciate it.

@InvestigateTruth

I would like to clarify the difference in your representation of the Bahai position and @loverofhumanity 's presentation. If you have time.

Please cite Bahai sources for these positions if you dont mind.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Well, that's a decent post. So your contention is that a hadith quoted by Bab, Bahaullah or Baha or Effendi are by default authentic based on authority. Well, that's similar to the Nizari, Imami, positions. Thats fine.

1. Is this an official, Bahai position?
2. How about the thousands of ahadith never mentioned by either one of them? Whats the Bahai position on that?

Thanks for your post. I really appreciate it.

Yes that’s the official position. We are not permitted to individually determine authenticity of hadiths or any scripture.

As to other hadiths if they comply with what the Quran says they might be true. For instance the Quran states that Muhammad was an example to mankind so any hadith portraying Him a negative light would be false as it is contradicted by the Word of God.

The sole authority always remains with the Word of God.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Yes that’s the official position. We are not permitted to individually determine authenticity of hadiths or any scripture.

As to other hadiths if they comply with what the Quran says they might be true. For instance the Quran states that Muhammad was an example to mankind so any hadith portraying Him a negative light would be false as it is contradicted by the Word of God.

The sole authority always remains with the Word of God.

Oh so there is another type of scholarship also involved in this equation. So what you are saying is, there is another methodology of authentication, which is as you said, anything that portrays the prophet Muhammed as an example in a positive light is fact?

Can you please cite the official Bahai position on this?
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Oh so there is another type of scholarship also involved in this equation. So what you are saying is, there is another methodology of authentication, which is as you said, anything that portrays the prophet Muhammed as an example in a positive light is fact?

Can you please cite the official Bahai position on this?

No what I meant was that whatever the Quran says is truth and no hadith can ever trump it. I just gave an example of it that’s all. There is no other method than the Quran itself and with Baha’is what their Manifestations have officially recorded and signed with Their seal.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
No what I meant was that whatever the Quran says is truth and no hadith can ever trump it. I just gave an example of it that’s all. There is no other method than the Quran itself and with Baha’is what their Manifestations have officially recorded and signed with Their seal.

Okay. So you did say that ahadith should not portray the prophet in a bad light, thus as compliant with the Quran ahadth that are portraying the prophet Muhammed in a positive light is authentic by default. Let me quote your statement here so that if you could, you could clarify.

For instance the Quran states that Muhammad was an example to mankind so any hadith portraying Him a negative light would be false as it is contradicted by the Word of God.

Please clarify, and please provide Bahai sources if you have any.

If you dont have Bahai sources like an official page at least, its alright, just say it does not exist. Thats just so that I dont go looking for a bahai source that would support your position.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If you dont have Bahai sources like an official page at least, its alright, just say it does not exist. Thats just so that I dont go looking for a bahai source that would support your position.

I am not aware of any in depth detail on this topic, Regards Tony.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I am not aware of any in depth detail on this topic, Regards Tony.

This quote offers how we should consider gaining our knowledge of Islam from.

"They must strive to obtain, from sources that are authoritative and unbiased, a sound knowledge of the history and tenets of Islam -- the source and background of their Faith -- and approach reverently and with a mind purged from preconceived ideas the study of the Qur'án which, apart from the sacred scriptures of the Bábí and Bahá'í Revelations, constitutes the only Book which can be regarded as an absolutely authenticated Repository of the Word of God. They must devote special attention to the investigation of those institutions and circumstances that are directly connected with the origin and birth of their Faith, with the station claimed by its Forerunner, and with the laws revealed by its Author. (Shoghi Effendi, The Advent of Divine Justice, p. 49)

Regards Tony
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Okay. So you did say that ahadith should not portray the prophet in a bad light, thus as compliant with the Quran ahadth that are portraying the prophet Muhammed in a positive light is authentic by default. Let me quote your statement here so that if you could, you could clarify.



Please clarify, and please provide Bahai sources if you have any.

If you dont have Bahai sources like an official page at least, its alright, just say it does not exist. Thats just so that I dont go looking for a bahai source that would support your position.

This is a quote by Abdul-Baha regarding only following the texts not narratives or stories which hadiths are.

Thou hast written concerning the pilgrims and pilgrim's notes.
Any narrative that is not authenticated by a Text should not be
trusted. Narratives, even if true, cause confusion. For the people of
Baha, the Text, and only the Text, is authentic." (Translated extract
from a previously-untranslated Tablet of 'Abdu'l-Bahá)
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
This is a quote by Abdul-Baha regarding only following the texts not narratives or stories which hadiths are.

Thou hast written concerning the pilgrims and pilgrim's notes.
Any narrative that is not authenticated by a Text should not be
trusted. Narratives, even if true, cause confusion. For the people of
Baha, the Text, and only the Text, is authentic." (Translated extract
from a previously-untranslated Tablet of 'Abdu'l-Bahá)

So you are making an analogy between the pilgrims notes (which Tony @TransmutingSoul educated me about) and ahadith?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
This quote offers how we should consider gaining our knowledge of Islam from.

"They must strive to obtain, from sources that are authoritative and unbiased, a sound knowledge of the history and tenets of Islam -- the source and background of their Faith -- and approach reverently and with a mind purged from preconceived ideas the study of the Qur'án which, apart from the sacred scriptures of the Bábí and Bahá'í Revelations, constitutes the only Book which can be regarded as an absolutely authenticated Repository of the Word of God. They must devote special attention to the investigation of those institutions and circumstances that are directly connected with the origin and birth of their Faith, with the station claimed by its Forerunner, and with the laws revealed by its Author. (Shoghi Effendi, The Advent of Divine Justice, p. 49)

Regards Tony

IN this case, speaking about "the author", who do you think is or are the author(s) of ahadith?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So you are making an analogy between the pilgrims notes (which Tony @TransmutingSoul educated me about) and ahadith?

Yes, as these are records of people who are saying this is what was said, but were recorded some time later, varying from hours to years.

They are an understanding of the topic from that persons perspective, it is what they recollected in their given frames of reference and capacity in spirit.

For a Baha'i these are of great interest, but if they are not backed by the recorded Message, we have no way of knowing if that is what was said, or if it was said, what was the entire context and intended meaning.

For instance, there was a lot of pilgrim notes from Shoghi Effendi time around the 2nd world war. They were very graphic about the possibility of the destruction that faced mankind.

Those talks are reflected in the official writings, but no where near the detail given by the pilgrims. Also many pilgrims were at the same talks and interestingly the records of each of these almost always give different levels of detail. So it is easy to see how a person could have embellished the talk with their own reflections and ideas they had on what they had heard.

Regards Tony
 
Top