Jesus as Christ

[TagliatelliMonster]

And faith is the evidence.

That's ridiculous.

Faith rather is the justification given for believing something when there is no evidence.
"why should I believe this?"
"well, you just gotta have faith".

If you would have evidence, you would have no need for faith.


Faith is not evidence.
Faith is gullibility.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Why don't you pick one to start with. We will see if you have a valid explanation or just apologetics. Apologetics is a loss.

Ok.
It gives one contradiction under the question, 'Did Jesus baptise anyone?' [John 3:22; John 4:2]
So, tell me, is this a contradiction?

 

[Redemptionsong]

That's ridiculous.

Faith rather is the justification given for believing something when there is no evidence.
"why should I believe this?"
"well, you just gotta have faith".

If you would have evidence, you would have no need for faith.


Faith is not evidence.
Faith is gullibility.

Well, there IS a clear difference between those who can only see with natural eyes, and those who see with the eyes of faith. It's the difference between 'Seeing is believing' and 'Believing is seeing'. God, as scripture constantly teaches, calls people in their spirit. Only through a faithful response is it possible to please God.

David did not fight Goliath without faith. He believed that God was with him, and he won. The rational man would not have matched a youth in robes with a giant in armour.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Well, there IS a clear difference between those who can only see with natural eyes, and those who see with the eyes of faith.

Indeed. The first cares about actual evidence and the latter doesn't.

It's the difference between 'Seeing is believing' and 'Believing is seeing'

Exactly.
Or otherwise put: the difference between rational reasoning and superstitious gullibility.

God, as scripture constantly teaches(*), calls people in their spirit. Only through a faithful response is it possible to please God.

(*)claims

David did not fight Goliath without faith.

...or at all.

 

[Redemptionsong]

In the past irradiated changed chemical brain state behaviour witnessed.

The theme to teach involves all subjects.

Yet if you are first a self human healthy natural spiritual equal you then include topics not ever needed to spiritually be discussed. We were forced to.

Scientific quantified by men as acts of evil was by taking form of God stone products destroying and converting them.

Science introduced human lying to continue nuclear science for trade greed control threats.

Science does your math formula to get gods changed stone body by science human as pondered thought calculations involve just the gained energy? By gods body you change yourself then consume it.

As a machine resource to power the machine? Inventions need a machine life.

No. Consuming removing of said energy gained is not maths included as the answer formula. Maths hence lies does not include natural results to origin form. Consumed and removed.

Origin form created presence. Consumed gone.

Scientific coercion in the beginning. We aren't living in or as the beginning.

Science hence lied.

Spiritual teachings said evil is not spiritual. Destruction change is change is never healed nor replaced.

Then science occult argued but human bio form did. Get replaced after destroyed. And thinks that statement is maths.

Reason to argue no man is God and how in science the status was never the heavens.

As you need to understand scientists are liars.

Children babies are our life future. Human.

Adults self owned in cults abuse babies children and sexually molest them and do evil acts against life continuance. Conscious advice is holy life of the child.

As life became irradiated if the science mentality expresses first who care less about natural life by maths agreed God product destruction continuance it is also by demonstrated man behaviour.

He exhibits it outwardly also. In two places pre thought then inherited.

The evil act against human life self occult science irradiation not originally stating science changed God. Direct blame in science....God did it.

Bible was written to denote man did it directly to self by man's choice ignored as usual. As he caused gods body stone to change.

As each speck of dust owned presence by a huge large opened space pressure. Remove the energy speck of huge energy pressurized within a larger space then opens.

Changed space pressure destroys held mass. Blows up into huge chunks. It expanded space heated explodes outwards into small speckled particles. Two forms of pre blasting evidences in space.

O once held God bodies. Known by the scientist. As science says origin mass was colder first. Ignored also.

That type of man mentality known advice if what he seeks as beginning advice equals end advice proves he has no belief of life continuance beyond himself.

Christ was first holiest highest status also ignored. In teaching concepts.

Man's life was sacrificed.

Life was saved even though man irradiated life.

Original science a long time ago placed the advice Jesus before Christ meaning a long time ago they ended all life on earth.

As evidence science had by man's choice.

Science first advice. I invented radiating fall of man fallout. I tried to bring voided light constant by machine to the ground. Void vacuum owned it.

Burning gas.

God earth stone ground never owned it. Lied.

Mother womb had kept life safe space.

Life sacrificed life survived.

So kept using machine. Even after notified. Life was sacrificed by science cause but survived. Once. All life then destroyed. First origin life on earth.

We are taught we returned to life and are living a second human life. Removed of first healthy life origin.

After ice age old recorded heavens man science was heard. As our psyche re developed. Told everyone I heard man's science advice.

Copied it's practice. Ice previously did not exist. Ignored as modern day science advice.

Ice end of year returned saviour saved life. We lived sacrificed genetic exodus. Mutated. Healed. Moses.

Intent however based on origin science notification all life had ended.

Notice science knew ice saved us now ice is melting. Science totally advised.

Healed humans as human sex gets rid of mutations in sex act.

As we lived not in changed gas heavens. Constant water oxygen heavens THE SAME.

Ignored also by scientists. Sex gets rid of it. Gas heavens not about our life. Scientific liars.

Reapplied pyramid temple again. Life starts dying sacrificed again. So said Christ body removed as by Jesus act again.

Jesus in Phi begins on bare ground radiated melted stone etched Phi signs. Science lie said it begins on top of crops ends on bare ground.

Both thoughts evil.

Science is the lie.

So what does it take to convince humans that science is evil and scientists the first cult are liars?

Tell me, Rational Experiences, is Jesus Christ the truth?

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm familiar with your take on John, but the orthodox Christian understanding of these passages of scripture is that Christ's work as a 'mediator' is finished. When he returns he is no longer mediating; he is judging.

That is one thing we believe Baha'ullah did, judge, but He was also a mediator and He also brought many new things, as Christ had promised.

Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah was the Spirit of truth because He guided us into all truth and He glorified Jesus. He did not speak of Himself, He only spoke what He heard from the Holy Spirit. It was the Holy Spirit speaking through Baha'u'llah that taught us all things, not the man.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

If Bahais require more than one Messiah, in whom do they place their faith? Or can we conclude that for Bahais a man is justified by works rather than by faith?

We place our faith in Baha'u'llah but also in Christ and other Manifestations of God that have come to earth.
No, Bahais do not believe we are justified by works, although works are important. Faith in Baha'u'llah is our primary duty although we also have to adhere to His Laws.

“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 330-331

The Twin Duties

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What I would like you to state clearly is just who Jesus was during his ministry on earth.
Did Jesus have a corruptible body?
Did Jesus have a soul?
Did Jesus have the Holy Spirit without measure?

If you mean by corruptible that Jesus could die, then yes.
God resurrected Jesus back to his pre-human heavenly body, not in a corruptible body.
Jesus (Like Adam - Genesis 2:7 ) was a soul.
Jesus did Not possess a soul or have a soul but was a 'living soul' or person like Adam until he died.
Jesus said at Luke 11:13 B.... how much more so will the Father in Heaven give holy spirit to those asking Him.
So, yes, Jesus asked for God's spirit and Jesus had God's spirit.
Jesus became Messiah at his baptism when God's spirit in the from of bird came down upon Jesus.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

...............Faith is not evidence. Faith is gullibility.

Faith is confidence in the teachings of Jesus Christ as found in the Bible.

When you drive somewhere to see a friend you have faith/confidence that friend will be there.
One does Not say I have ' No evidence and I am gullible ' because I believe I will see my friend.

 

[Polymath257]

Faith is confidence in the teachings of Jesus Christ as found in the Bible.

When you drive somewhere to see a friend you have faith/confidence that friend will be there.
One does Not say I have ' No evidence and I am gullible ' because I believe I will see my friend.

First, you don't need to have 'faith' that your friend exists. Ordinary experience shows that.

Second, if you don't know whether or not your friend is where you are going, that faith can be badly misplaced.

Third, unless you have verified that the friend intends to be there when you are, the faith can be misplaced.

Fourth, if you had no evidence your friend exists, have not communicated with the friend, and have no reason to think the friend will be there, then you *would* be gullible to believe the friend would be there.

In the case of religious 'faith', there is no evidence supporting the existence of the deity you have 'faith' in, there is no way to reliably communicate with that entity, there is no reason to think the texts you have chosen are actually representative of that deity, and you have no reason to think that the deity is anything but a collective delusion.

So, yes, as I see it, that belief is a form of gullibility.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

.....David did not fight Goliath without faith. He believed that God was with him, and he won. The rational man would not have matched a youth in robes with a giant in armour.

Yes, David knew he was an 'excellent shot with his sling shot' so David had faith/confidence that his aim would work.
Because all of our talent or ability we have comes from God is why David believed in God and gave God the credit.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

First, you don't need to have 'faith' that your friend exists. Ordinary experience shows that.
Second, if you don't know whether or not your friend is where you are going, that faith can be badly misplaced.
Third, unless you have verified that the friend intends to be there when you are, the faith can be misplaced.
Fourth, if you had no evidence your friend exists, have not communicated with the friend, and have no reason to think the friend will be there, then you *would* be gullible to believe the friend would be there.
In the case of religious 'faith', there is no evidence supporting the existence of the deity you have 'faith' in, there is no way to reliably communicate with that entity, there is no reason to think the texts you have chosen are actually representative of that deity, and you have no reason to think that the deity is anything but a collective delusion.
So, yes, as I see it, that belief is a form of gullibility.

People have faith/confidence George Washington existed besides people of ancient history.
We have never seen those people but through writings we know they existed.
Misplaced is: you don't know whether or not your friend is where you are going... Bible isn't going anywhere.
Verified the friend is there... Bible is always there.
We can communicate with God at any time because His Word (Bible) is always there.
Texts chosen to represent God because the Bible is full of harmonious cross-reference or parallel verses and passages.
That is why Jesus could use logical reasoning on the old Hebrew Scriptures as the basis for his teachings.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

....... There is a difference between knowledge and mere belief. If you know then you can support your claims. If you can't you only have mere belief.

I find that Jesus had 'knowledge' (being well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures) and that is why Jesus could use logical reasoning on which to base his beliefs, support his teachings, on the old Hebrew Scriptures expounding and explaining them for us.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Indeed. The first cares about actual evidence and the latter doesn't.



Exactly.
Or otherwise put: the difference between rational reasoning and superstitious gullibility.



(*)claims


...or at all.

Faith does not mean 'without evidence'. 'Faith comes by hearing', and one needs to hear the truth of the Gospel to believe. IMO.

The spiritual man places his faith in the Creator, not the creation. There's a difference between placing one's faith in temporal things and things that last forever.

Where does your treasure lie?

 

[Trailblazer]

Where does your treasure lie?

My treasure does not lie on earth, but rather in the grace of God.

Matthew 6:19-21 Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

“Place not thy reliance on thy treasures. Put thy whole confidence in the grace of God, thy Lord. Let Him be thy trust in whatever thou doest, and be of them that have submitted themselves to His Will. Let Him be thy helper and enrich thyself with His treasures, for with Him are the treasuries of the heavens and of the earth.” Gleanings, pp.234-235

 

[Redemptionsong]

Yes, David knew he was an 'excellent shot with his sling shot' so David had faith/confidence that his aim would work.
Because all of our talent or ability we have comes from God is why David believed in God and gave God the credit.

Yes, we all have talents, but, in Christ, there is grace over and above our natural talent. If this were not so, we would be justified by works and not by faith.

 

[Redemptionsong]

My treasure does not lie on earth, but rather in the grace of God.

Matthew 6:19-21 Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

“Place not thy reliance on thy treasures. Put thy whole confidence in the grace of God, thy Lord. Let Him be thy trust in whatever thou doest, and be of them that have submitted themselves to His Will. Let Him be thy helper and enrich thyself with His treasures, for with Him are the treasuries of the heavens and of the earth.” Gleanings, pp.234-235

Why is Baha'ullah not a follower of Christ?

 

[Trailblazer]

Why is Baha'ullah not a follower of Christ?

Baha'u'llah was not a follower of Christ. He testified of Christ, glorified Christ, and promoted Christ, but Baha'is also believe that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ.

Referring to Jesus Christ as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah wrote:

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, page 86 the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.

We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.

Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

 

[Redemptionsong]

Baha'u'llah was not a follower of Christ. He testified of Christ, glorified Christ, and promoted Christ, but Baha'is also believe that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ.

Referring to Jesus Christ as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah wrote:

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, page 86 the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.

We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.

Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

In Isaiah 61:1-2, which Jesus quoted in the synagogue in Nazareth [Luke 4:18,19], there was no mention by Jesus of 'the day of vengeance of our God'. This was something reserved for the return of Christ. Did Baha'ullah, therefore, bring about 'the day of vengeance of our God'?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I find that Jesus had 'knowledge' (being well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures) and that is why Jesus could use logical reasoning on which to base his beliefs, support his teachings, on the old Hebrew Scriptures expounding and explaining them for us.

He may have been able to justify his morals based on that. Jesus did have superior morals for that time period.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Ok.
It gives one contradiction under the question, 'Did Jesus baptise anyone?' [John 3:22; John 4:2]
So, tell me, is this a contradiction?

LOL! You were the one that said that he could refute them. I have not checked the context so it may not be one You must have searched for a while to find one that you could refute. Why didn't you refute it?