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Missouri conservative group confronts student senator as he takes down and throws away flags from 9/

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
We revere our flag (worship is reserved for God) because it actually stands for something, and because people fought and died defending what it stands for. I don't expect most foreigners to understand or do the same because not all flags are due such reverence.
Ah yes, because only Americans are patriotic or understand flags.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Did he steal them or were they left abandoned? I'm not making a claim either way, but I see a lot of flags just left around the place after Anzac and Australia Day, and I doubt it's any different in the US. How long after you leave a flag somewhere is it reasonable to remove it? It also says in the US Flag code that flags are not meant to be left flying unattended after sundown, unless artificially lit, but a lot of people rage-frothing about disrespect of the flag seem to ignore that part. Not to mention that the flag is never to be worn as an item of apparel, but I digress...
There is not enough detail in the article of the OP to say. The flag code is not law. It is merely a resource for people that want to treat the flag respectfully. And many that respect the flag do not follow it one hundred percent. Now I need to remember to snoop on a neighbor's flag. I know he does not take it down at night (there is a Trump flag flying below his US flag). And I am not sure if he has a light on it. At any rate, I do support legal protest, this does not appear to be such a case. And I doubt if the perpetrator will act properly if found guilty and is sentenced in some way. If he pisses and moans this was not an act of civil disobedience. Instead it would show it to be the act of a spoiled child.
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
There is not enough detail in the article of the OP to say. The flag code is not law. It is merely a resource for people that want to treat the flag respectfully. And many that respect the flag do not follow it one hundred percent. Now I need to remember to snoop on a neighbor's flag. I know he does not take it down at night (there is a Trump flag flying below his US flag). And I am not sure if he has a light on it. At any rate, I do support legal protest, this does not appear to be such a case. And I doubt if the perpetrator will act properly if found guilty and is sentenced in some way. If he pisses and moans this was not an act of civil disobedience. Instead it would show it to be the act of a spoiled child.
I do know the flag code isn't a law, yet I do find the people most loudly whining about "disrespecting the flag" are usually the worst at following the code which, as you said, literally describes how to respect it.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I do know the flag code isn't a law, yet I do find the people most loudly whining about "disrespecting the flag" are usually the worst at following the code which, as you said, literally describes how to respect it.
That is also most definitely the case here. Like how we're not supposed to wear it as clothing, but flag clothing is very popular.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
That is also most definitely the case here. Like how we're not supposed to wear it as clothing, but flag clothing is very popular.

Yes, here is some patriotic apparel.

American-flag-bikini-03.Jpg
 
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Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Even though that is technically flag desecration.:facepalm:
They want others to be a hardened, 1000% pro-America patriot, but they can't even take it seriously themselves.

Yeah, I know, especially with bathing suits, where it can get wedged into one's rear end. That's some pretty serious desecration.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I keep a little Ameristanian flag inside Mr Van.
Just in case he's ever searched by a cop.
(I'd require a search warrant.)
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
Strange they nicked the design from the British East India Company though :D
Foreshadowing corporate control of modern society one-and-a-half centuries in advance, I'm impressed!

Yeah, I know, especially with bathing suits, where it can get wedged into one's rear end. That's some pretty serious desecration.
I'll make an exception for patriotic swimsuits and lingerie worn by attractive members of any gender.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I wouldn't make that assumption. The president and former presidents spoke at 9/11 commemorations (with flags present and also wearing flag pins on their lapels), but I don't think they were trying to turn everyone into nationalists.
Expressing one's own nationalism does not necessarily mean "trying to turn everyone into nationalists."

I suppose one can question anyone's motives for putting up a memorial or setting up flags, although I've noticed that much of the time, it's more neutral than anything else. Maybe it's sub-conscious patriotism where it becomes second nature.
It's not a matter of questioning motives. We don't have to assume that they're doing anything ulterior to recognize that a national flag is a symbol that represents the nation. Making a national symbol like that an integral part of some sort of commemoration draws a symbolic link between the thing being commemorated and the nation.

I would guess that in this case, the symbolism was meant to express something like "9/11 was an attack on the nation, not just the ~3,000 people who died."

... which was the casus belli for the Afghan War and (sorta) the Iraq War.

... which points to why someone who opposed either war would take issue with the display.

Personally, the thing I find offensive is that each person who died isn't represented by something that's unique to them - their name or photo, for instance - but by a generic flag that's indistinguishable from and interchangeable with ~3,000 other flags. The display could be taken as disregarding the individuality of the people killed and instead representing them as anonymous units of "America" (even though nearly 400 of the 9/11 victims weren't even American).
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
There is not enough detail in the article of the OP to say. The flag code is not law. It is merely a resource for people that want to treat the flag respectfully.
No, it is a law. It's a section of the US Code, which is the compendium of the USA's federal laws.

It's just that it doesn't provide for any penalties - except in DC (but I don't believe this is really enforced) - for violating it.

So while you won't go to jail for violating the Flag Code, violating it is technically illegal.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Expressing one's own nationalism does not necessarily mean "trying to turn everyone into nationalists."

I agree, although I was addressing your point that the presence of the flag itself represents an appeal to nationalism.

It's not a matter of questioning motives. We don't have to assume that they're doing anything ulterior to recognize that a national flag is a symbol that represents the nation. Making a national symbol like that an integral part of some sort of commemoration draws a symbolic link between the thing being commemorated and the nation.

I would guess that in this case, the symbolism was meant to express something like "9/11 was an attack on the nation, not just the ~3,000 people who died."

... which was the casus belli for the Afghan War and (sorta) the Iraq War.

... which points to why someone who opposed either war would take issue with the display.

Personally, the thing I find offensive is that each person who died isn't represented by something that's unique to them - their name or photo, for instance - but by a generic flag that's indistinguishable from and interchangeable with ~3,000 other flags. The display could be taken as disregarding the individuality of the people killed and instead representing them as anonymous units of "America" (even though nearly 400 of the 9/11 victims weren't even American).

You make some good points. However, I'm not sure how much the flag, in and of itself, plays a role in that. When we're talking about the Afghan War, the Iraq War, or the overall "War on Terror" that Bush declared shortly after 9/11, then we're not so much talking about the flag as much as it's about political rhetoric and the official statements made by our government.

I've noticed a lot of flag-wavers who love the flag and what they might consider "Americanism" or the American ideal, yet they simultaneously have a distinct anti-government bent, some even to the point of being accusatory and conspiratorial. Many have suggested that 9/11 might have been a setup by the government to rile up the masses into going to war.

But most people ostensibly believed the official story, and that being the case, they trusted the government's plan of action to bring about justice, which, as you point out, became the casus belli for the War on Terror, including wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. To me, that's typical US government geopolitical thinking, which isn't necessarily patriotism or nationalism. A lot of people have tried to make it such and associate the two, which is how concepts of patriotism became all the more surreal and vicarious.

But I didn't see any indication of that regarding this display. I don't mean to sound flippant, but this was more of a "Christmas decoration" than anything else. Some people get upset because they think it despoils the "true meaning of Christmas."
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I agree, although I was addressing your point that the presence of the flag itself represents an appeal to nationalism.
I said "link," not "appeal."

You make some good points. However, I'm not sure how much the flag, in and of itself, plays a role in that. When we're talking about the Afghan War, the Iraq War, or the overall "War on Terror" that Bush declared shortly after 9/11, then we're not so much talking about the flag as much as it's about political rhetoric and the official statements made by our government.
Yes: the flag represents the nation. What "the nation" represents will vary depending on who you asked.

(Though it's worth recognizing that this particular display was the work of the campus Republican student club)

I've noticed a lot of flag-wavers who love the flag and what they might consider "Americanism" or the American ideal, yet they simultaneously have a distinct anti-government bent, some even to the point of being accusatory and conspiratorial. Many have suggested that 9/11 might have been a setup by the government to rile up the masses into going to war.

But most people ostensibly believed the official story, and that being the case, they trusted the government's plan of action to bring about justice, which, as you point out, became the casus belli for the War on Terror, including wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. To me, that's typical US government geopolitical thinking, which isn't necessarily patriotism or nationalism. A lot of people have tried to make it such and associate the two, which is how concepts of patriotism became all the more surreal and vicarious.
Sure, but this is one example of what's now a 20-year tradition of slapping the flag on memorials of 9/11 in support of the "war on terror." I don't think this context should be ignored.

But I didn't see any indication of that regarding this display. I don't mean to sound flippant, but this was more of a "Christmas decoration" than anything else. Some people get upset because they think it despoils the "true meaning of Christmas."
I doubt that there was a conscious effort to anonymize the victims, but I do think it's telling that out of all the things about the victims that they could emphasize or acknowledge, the only thing the organizers decided to acknowledge was the victims' "American-ness."

This is quite likely the result of implicit bias rather than conscious thought.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
We revere our flag (worship is reserved for God) because it actually stands for something, and because people fought and died defending what it stands for. I don't expect most foreigners to understand or do the same because not all flags are due such reverence.
You realize that you are disparaging other countries' flags here for no reason but your own ignorance, do you?
 
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