Reincarnation in Buddhism and Hinduism.

[Ben Dhyan]

I am interested in how reincarnation is understood by those who adhere to the belief. Obviously there must be some average number of incarnations from the first incarnation to the last for spiritual pilgrims. I mean it must follow a process analogous to the education system, where students are not all in the same class in any one year, but are on different levels based on how many years they have attended school (and presumably have learnt the lessons successfully for that class), so likewise, every reincarnation must bring the pilgrim closer to their last, but at any given time, there are those beginning their first incarnation, and those on their last reincarnation.

So my question is, how many 'grades' or 'levels' are there from first incarnation to last reincarnation. I am not asking how many reincarnations altogether, just how many stages are there to freedom from returning to physical life? I do realize that, as in the school system, there are failures every grade year, and thus they must repeat the grade, so the number of reincarnations will be more than the levels representing the first incarnation to the last.

 

[Secret Chief]

Contrary to what anybody has ever read or heard or seen or smelled, re-incarnation, as strictly understood by the term, is not a Buddhist teaching. The word is commonly used interchangeably with "rebirth" and also the distinction dismissed as semantic pedantry.

- What the Buddha Didn't Teach About Reincarnation

 

[Fool]

I am interested in how reincarnation is understood by those who adhere to the belief. Obviously there must be some average number of incarnations from the first incarnation to the last for spiritual pilgrims. I mean it must follow a process analogous to the education system, where students are not all in the same class in any one year, but are on different levels based on how many years they have attended school (and presumably have learnt the lessons successfully for that class), so likewise, every reincarnation must bring the pilgrim closer to their last, but at any given time, there are those beginning their first incarnation, and those on their last reincarnation.

So my question is, how many 'grades' or 'levels' are there from first incarnation to last reincarnation. I am not asking how many reincarnations altogether, just how many stages are there to freedom from returning to physical life? I do realize that, as in the school system, there are failures every grade year, and thus they must repeat the grade, so the number of reincarnations will be more than the levels representing the first incarnation to the last.

as many as is necessary until reaching nirvana. in the abrahamic system its reaching the kingdom of heaven.


and yes you have intuitively picked up on the fact that it isn't based on physical age but on a spiritual maturity. in this case spiritual maturity is psychological maturity.


fyi, reincarnation is found in judaism among the chasidic. the word "regeneration" is a word which means palingenesis. the word reincarnation is a fairly new word having been coined in the mid to late 1800s. prior to that the ancients used metempsychosis and before that, palin genesis


matthew 19:28

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Contrary to what anybody has ever read or heard or seen or smelled, re-incarnation, as strictly understood by the term, is not a Buddhist teaching. The word is commonly used interchangeably with "rebirth" and also the distinction dismissed as semantic pedantry.

- What the Buddha Didn't Teach About Reincarnation

The author of the link is Barbara O'Brien who is a Zen Buddhist practitioner who studied at Zen Mountain Monastery. Zen is a Japanese word derived from the Chinese Chan (Japanese Buddhism came from China). Chan comes from the Sanskrit Dhyan. Bodhidharma is credited with introducing Buddhism to China and Chan is the religious system that emerged when Buddhism met Taoism. So yes, semantics aside, reincarnation is very much a Buddhist belief, ask the Dalai Lama.

 

[SalixIncendium]

There is no set number of rebirths or different grades or levels. Whether or not one is reborn is dependent upon one's attachment to transactional reality and ignorance of one's true nature.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I am interested in how reincarnation is understood by those who adhere to the belief. Obviously there must be some average number of incarnations from the first incarnation to the last for spiritual pilgrims. I mean it must follow a process analogous to the education system, where students are not all in the same class in any one year, but are on different levels based on how many years they have attended school (and presumably have learnt the lessons successfully for that class), so likewise, every reincarnation must bring the pilgrim closer to their last, but at any given time, there are those beginning their first incarnation, and those on their last reincarnation.

So my question is, how many 'grades' or 'levels' are there from first incarnation to last reincarnation. I am not asking how many reincarnations altogether, just how many stages are there to freedom from returning to physical life? I do realize that, as in the school system, there are failures every grade year, and thus they must repeat the grade, so the number of reincarnations will be more than the levels representing the first incarnation to the last.

The Buddha doesn't believe there is an inherent soul. Our identity is constantly changing that to call it that-a fixed self-is not the buddhist thought. Instead, once one knows he doesn't have a fixed identity, they are liberated. It takes many rebirths to not attach oneself to one's self and environment. They liberate ourselves through our actions.

From what I understand Hindus believe there is a soul. Unlike Buddhism, awareness of the soul and everything without differentiation to unite with the divine is totally different concept than what The Buddha taught.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

as many as is necessary until reaching nirvana. in the abrahamic system its reaching the kingdom of heaven.


and yes you have intuitively picked up on the fact that it isn't based on physical age but on a spiritual maturity. in this case spiritual maturity is psychological maturity.


fyi, reincarnation is found in judaism among the chasidic. the word "regeneration" is a word which means palingenesis. the word reincarnation is a fairly new word having been coined in the mid to late 1800s. prior to that the ancients used metempsychosis and before that, palin genesis


matthew 19:28

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Are you referring to the number of grades or levels when you say as many as necessary, or the total number of reincarnations, If the latter, that is not my question, I am asking about the number of levels or grades that define where each pilgrim is in the journey.

 

[SalixIncendium]

From what I understand Hindus believe there is a soul.

Not this one.

 

[Secret Chief]

The author of the link is Barbara O'Brien who is a Zen Buddhist practitioner who studied at Zen Mountain Monastery. Zen is a Japanese word derived from the Chinese Chan (Japanese Buddhism came from China). Chan comes from the Sanskrit Dhyan. Bodhidharma is credited with introducing Buddhism to China and Chan is the religious system that emerged when Buddhism met Taoism. So yes, semantics aside, reincarnation is very much a Buddhist belief, ask the Dalai Lama.

I know all this, thanks!
Here is the R index from Access to Insight, probably the largest online source of the Pali canon. The reader is invited to count the number of entries for "Rebirth" and the number of entries for "Reincarnation."

- General Index

 

[Ben Dhyan]

The Buddha doesn't believe there is an inherent soul. Our identity is constantly changing that to call it that-a fixed self-is not the buddhist thought. Instead, once one knows he doesn't have a fixed identity, they are liberated. It takes many rebirths to not attach oneself to one's self and environment. They liberate ourselves through our actions.

From what I understand Hindus believe there is a soul. Unlike Buddhism, awareness of the soul and everything without differentiation to unite with the divine is totally different concept than what The Buddha taught.

True, that is the teaching, but the fact remains that Nirvana is Brahman, Siddartha merely used new concepts that ultimately arrive at the same reality. one that is transcendent to physical life. I not only see Nirvana as Brahman, but the Tao also. God =Nirvana=Allah=Tao=Brahman=etc..

 

[Fool]

Are you referring to the number of grades or levels when you say as many as necessary, or the total number of reincarnations, If the latter, that is not my question, I am asking about the number of levels or grades that define where each pilgrim is in the journey.

the one i understand is 8 can bee understood in the book of revelation.


at the 8th octave the infinite by the symbol itself of the lemniscate. the individual self ceases to exist and becomes one with the absolute. the mind, spirit reconnects to its source.


8 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

 

[sayak83]

I am interested in how reincarnation is understood by those who adhere to the belief. Obviously there must be some average number of incarnations from the first incarnation to the last for spiritual pilgrims. I mean it must follow a process analogous to the education system, where students are not all in the same class in any one year, but are on different levels based on how many years they have attended school (and presumably have learnt the lessons successfully for that class), so likewise, every reincarnation must bring the pilgrim closer to their last, but at any given time, there are those beginning their first incarnation, and those on their last reincarnation.

So my question is, how many 'grades' or 'levels' are there from first incarnation to last reincarnation. I am not asking how many reincarnations altogether, just how many stages are there to freedom from returning to physical life? I do realize that, as in the school system, there are failures every grade year, and thus they must repeat the grade, so the number of reincarnations will be more than the levels representing the first incarnation to the last.

Souls have three stages of growth: Tamasic (Ignorance based striving), Rajasic (passion driven striving), Sattwik (wisdom driven striving). Souls have to pass through these three stages of striving until one attains moksha. (My rough understanding based on my readings)

 

[Fool]

Contrary to what anybody has ever read or heard or seen or smelled, re-incarnation, as strictly understood by the term, is not a Buddhist teaching. The word is commonly used interchangeably with "rebirth" and also the distinction dismissed as semantic pedantry.

- What the Buddha Didn't Teach About Reincarnation

your title says what the buddha didn't teach about reincarnation. That doesn't mean he didn't teach regarding the illusion of forms, or in the case of the personal me; which is a personality.


The Buddha taught that what we think of as our "self"--our ego, self-consciousness, and personality -- is a creation of the skandhas. Very simply, our bodies, physical and emotional sensations, conceptualizations, ideas and beliefs, and consciousness work together to create the illusion of a permanent, distinctive "me."


the impermanent and existence still thrives under all those layers of a personal self

 

[Ben Dhyan]

There is no set number of rebirths or different grades or levels. Whether or not one is reborn is dependent upon one's attachment to transactional reality and ignorance of one's true nature.

Then you are no good to me, the whole purpose of my thread is to find out some ordered process behind the reincarnation belief. To suggest there are no limits to the number of reincarnations means that karma does not work as an efficacious way of ending reincarnation. I have heard there are nine levels, but only from a tourist brochure on the Borobudur Temple in Java. It makes more sense than just a nebulous 'as many as it takes' concept. Look at the stages of evolutionary development, elemental, plant, animal/bird/fish, human, you can see there are levels of Divine expression from the less evolved to the more evolved. But it is staged, ordered, not nebulous,

 

[SalixIncendium]

Then you are no good to me...

I'll keep this in mind in the future.

I will also bear in mind that you are one of those that asks a question, then tries the correct people's responses. I don't need you to teach me about my worldview. I'm confident others don't need to you to teach them about their beliefs either.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I'll keep this in mind in the future.

I will also bear in mind that you are one of those that asks a question, then tries the correct people's responses. I don't need you to teach me about my worldview. I'm confident others don't need to you to teach them about their beliefs either.

My apologies, my expression "then you are no good to me" was not meant as derogatory, merely an expression of my impatient desire for some reasonable fulfilling answer to my question. Chill bro.

 

[Lyndon]

I know all this, thanks!
Here is the R index from Access to Insight, probably the largest online source of the Pali canon. The reader is invited to count the number of entries for "Rebirth" and the number of entries for "Reincarnation."

General Index

The pali word for reincarnation is identical with the pali word for rebirth, rebirth is just trendier right now.

 

[Secret Chief]

your title says what the buddha didn't teach about reincarnation. That doesn't mean he didn't teach regarding the illusion of forms, or in the case of the personal me; which is a personality.

The Buddha taught that what we think of as our "self"--our ego, self-consciousness, and personality -- is a creation of the skandhas. Very simply, our bodies, physical and emotional sensations, conceptualizations, ideas and beliefs, and consciousness work together to create the illusion of a permanent, distinctive "me."

the impermanent and existence still thrives under all those layers of a personal self

Thanks, but I'm not looking for Buddhism to be explained very simply to me. I was very simply pointing out that reincarnation, is not a Buddhist teaching. As my link showed, it is not to be found in the most complete early scripture collection, the Pali canon, the so-called "Word of the Buddha."

 

[Secret Chief]

The pali word for reincarnation is identical with the pali word for rebirth, rebirth is just trendier right now.

Reincarnation is typically taken to mean another incarnation of a soul, which is why it is helpful to distinguish the word from another.

 

[Fool]

Thanks, but I'm not looking for Buddhism to be explained very simply to me. I was very simply pointing out that reincarnation, is not a Buddhist teaching. As my link showed, it is not to be found in the most complete early scripture collection, the Pali canon, the so-called "Word of the Buddha."

the buddha didn't write anything down. we also know most holy men have an inner circle to which they give further insight. rebirth is an illusion simply because impermanence is real; which is eternal and self sustaining.

that goes against the idea of self-perpetuating but we know the universe, the absolute does that somehow