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Where Did This Belief Come From?

DNB

Christian
Does the Bible ever say that our beliefs must be written in the Bible? Must we be able to cite chapter and verse that explicitly says what we believe in order to justify that belief?

If you think so, please cite chapter and verse stating this.
Yes, the Bible implies that it is the Word of God only that determines righteousness and orthodoxy. This goes without saying - if the Bible is divinely inspired in some sense or another, then it is the bastion of truth. So that, when one attempts to establish doctrine and dogma, they extract their positions from the Bible, and when in controversy, one is obligated to reference their proof-text with book, chapter and verse.

This is elementary reasoning, it is not incumbent for this mandate to be explicitly stated in the Bible itself, it just follows the practical process of establishing truth. First, examine and define your source as authoritative, and then reference your source in order to substantiate your position. This is not a theological issue, even scientists or atheists, in order to prove whatever point that they are trying to make, will cite an authorized source. Just like a footnote or bibliography when used to support a view.

I think that first, you created a straw-man argument claiming that this was some tenet in and of itself. And two, that this was some practice exclusive to Bible students.
Again, it's just the most prudent, objective and effective way to determine orthodoxy, especially considering the sublime and esoteric nature of the matter at hand - interpretation will invariably be so controversial. Verses must be cited in order to qualify one's stance on an issue.
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
Yes, the Bible implies that it is the Word of God only that determines righteousness and orthodoxy. This goes without saying - if the Bible is divinely inspired in some sense or another, then it is the bastion of truth. So that, when one attempts to establish doctrine and dogma, they extract their positions from the Bible, and when in controversy, one is obligated to reference their proof-text with book, chapter and verse.

This is elementary reasoning, it is not incumbent for this mandate to be explicitly stated in the Bible itself, it just follows the practical process of establishing truth. First, examine and define your source as authoritative, and then reference your source in order to substantiate your position. This is not a theological issue, even scientists or atheists, in order to prove whatever point that they are trying to make, will cite an authorized source. Just like a footnote or bibliography when used to support a view.

I think that first, you created a straw-man argument claiming that this was some tenet in and of itself. And two, that this was some practice exclusive to Bible students.
Again, it's just the most prudent, objective and effective way to determine orthodoxy, especially considering the sublime and esoteric nature of the matter at hand - interpretation will invariably be so controversial. Verses must be cited in order to qualify one's stance on an issue.

DNB Example: "Listen to the church or be treated as Pagan!"
"He who hears you hears me he who rejects you rejects me & God!"
"I am with you ALWAYS to the end of time"!
"I send you the Holy Spirit to be with you FOREVER"!
"When the Holy Spirit comes he will guide you into all truth!"
"The Church is the pillar and the foundation of truth"!
"I Give You the keys to heaven what you open or close is also done in heaven"!
"Go make disciples Baptizing them"!
"Jesus said "Disciples are my brothers"!
"My church is built on Peter not sand"!
"Go teach all nations with my authority"!
"3000 were added to Jesus' body by baptism!"
etc
 
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DNB

Christian
DNB Example: "Listen to the church or be treated as Pagan!"
"He who hears you hears me he who rejects you rejects me & God!"
"I am with you ALWAYS to the end of time"!
"I send you the Holy Spirit to be with you FOREVER"!
"When the Holy Spirit comes he will guide you into all truth!"
"The Church is the pillar and the foundation of truth"!
"I Give You the keys to heaven what you open or close is also done in heaven"!
"Go make disciples Baptizing them"!
"Jesus said "Disciples are my brothers"!
"My church is built on Peter not sand"!
"Go teach all nations with my authority"!
"3000 were added to Jesus' body by baptism!"
etc
Thank you for that, Dogknox20! As I said, there is no explicit verse that states that one must cite Chapter and Verse in order to substantiate a position. But, as you quoted, the Bible does implicitly affirm that Scripture is authoritative, the sole source of truth, and transcendent. And, therefore, is the paradigm for all doctrine and dogma. Thus, learn it well, and be prepared to reference Chapter & Verse when establishing the tenets of either Judaism or Christianity.
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
Thank you for that, Dogknox20! As I said, there is no explicit verse that states that one must cite Chapter and Verse in order to substantiate a position. But, as you quoted, the Bible does implicitly affirm that Scripture is authoritative, the sole source of truth, and transcendent. And, therefore, is the paradigm for all doctrine and dogma. Thus, learn it well, and be prepared to reference Chapter & Verse when establishing the tenets of either Judaism or Christianity.
.
DNB I must point out; there was no new testament for 400 years all they used was Old Testament. The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church put the bible together, she is the authority that decided. With the help of the Holy Spirit she alone picked the truly inspired lettered from the hundreds of phony letters! THEN..

DNB
then she put all the truly inspired words of God into one book she named "The Bible"! Toss your bible out your stinking bathroom window if you reject the Catholic Church' authority! Otherwise how could you accept her decision in deciding the Inspired words of God is correct!? Fact is the idea of "Only Scripture" is the authority is a man made tradition it was unheard of for the first fifteen hundred years of Christianity! Martin Luther started the TRADITION of "We don't need Church all we need is faith and scriptures ALONE!"
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Unfortunately, Christendom has muddied even clear truths about who God is....they worship a different god than the Jewish / Israelite God, who is Yahweh. They claim Jesus is God, part of a trinity.

Jesus is called YHWH and the Spirit is called YHWH in the Bible.

But if Jesus is their God, why don’t they obey him?
(As Paul said @ Titus 1:16, there would be those who would “disown (God) by their works.” )
For instance, Jesus taught to “love your enemy.”
Not only does most of Christendom ignore this, they even approve of killing their brothers! (If the geography is wrong.) They’ve worked “lawlessness.” — Matthew 7:21-23.

But really, all of this evidence doesn’t condemn the Bible.... only the leaders of Christendom, who claim to follow it.

The sheep have been misled... and fleeced!

It's true we all sin and church leaders have led in the wrong direction but that is not enough to say the whole church is apostate and must be left because Jesus said that the weeds would be in the church till the angels took them and threw them into the fire.
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
Jesus is called YHWH and the Spirit is called YHWH in the Bible.



It's true we all sin and church leaders have led in the wrong direction but that is not enough to say the whole church is apostate and must be left because Jesus said that the weeds would be in the church till the angels took them and threw them into the fire.
.
I reply.. Jesus also said "He will remain FOREVER with his Body" this means Jesus did not leave his Church, it means he is still with the ONLY Church he established 2000 years ago! ! Jesus did NOT build his church on sand it will never fall!
I add.. God warns us in the scriptures ..Scripture Prophesy" 2 Peter 2: "from our of the church will come Heretics.". Arius WAS a Christian until he was removed as a False teacher, a Heretic! He was removed from Among Christians because he taught "Jesus is NOT God"!
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
.
Muffled.. The Holy Spirit speaks through the Church!

Luke 10:16 Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

I believe that is misplaced. The 70 were sent out with a special anointing. That can't be generalized to the church.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
.
I reply.. Jesus also said "He will remain FOREVER with his Body" this means Jesus did not leave his Church, it means he is still with the ONLY Church he established 2000 years ago! ! Jesus did NOT build his church on sand it will never fall!
I add.. God warns us in the scriptures ..Scripture Prophesy" 2 Peter 2: "from our of the church will come Heretics.". Arius WAS a Christian until he was removed as a False teacher, a Heretic! He was removed from Among Christians because he taught "Jesus is NOT God"!

True, and true Christians are both in and outside the Catholic Church and they are all part of the one Church, the body of Christ.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
True, and true Christians are both in and outside the Catholic Church and they are all part of the one Church, the body of Christ.
Jesus and the Apostles created an organization with their appointees to form the "one body", as Paul called it, and that "one body" is not 30,000 bodies [denominations]. However, I will not go to the opposite extreme of declaring other denominations as not being "Christian", nor does the Catholic Church, btw.
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
True, and true Christians are both in and outside the Catholic Church and they are all part of the one Church, the body of Christ.
Hello Brian2 I hope all is well!
You have it a little twisted!

All the baptized are IMMERSED into the body of Jesus! The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church IS the Body of Jesus! Being ADDED to Jesus by Baptism is the start, you need to be nourished or you will die, you will NOT remain in Jesus!

Baptism ADDS (Immerses) us into Jesus "Communion" KEEPS us in His holy Body!
3000 were ADDED to Jesus' holy body the first day of Pentecost (Acts 2)

Communion KEEPS us in his Body!
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

Brian2 You may have been ADDED to Jesus, you do not eat the "True Manna that comes down from heaven" you are near death you are starving on your journey to the promised land! You did NOT Remain IN Jesus!
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Jesus and the Apostles created an organization with their appointees to form the "one body", as Paul called it, and that "one body" is not 30,000 bodies [denominations]. However, I will not go to the opposite extreme of declaring other denominations as not being "Christian", nor does the Catholic Church, btw.

Yes I know the Catholic Church does not do that and I don't say that Catholics are not Christians either. I have been a Catholic and would not go back to that however and Protestants aren't invited to share fully in the Mass either,,,,,,,,,,,as if we are not full Christians.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Communion KEEPS us in his Body!
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

Brian2 You may have been ADDED to Jesus, you do not eat the "True Manna that comes down from heaven" you are near death you are starving on your journey to the promised land! You did NOT Remain IN Jesus!

John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is real food, and My blood is real drink.…...................
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

So Jesus was not speaking about His flesh and blood body or bread that has been turned into that, or wine that has been turned into His blood. (which Catholics do not have at communion anyway and so do not drink His blood) Jesus was speaking about hearing and believing His words.
And He is the Word of God and through faith we feed on Him but eating His words and believing them.
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is real food, and My blood is real drink.…...................
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

So Jesus was not speaking about His flesh and blood body or bread that has been turned into that, or wine that has been turned into His blood. (which Catholics do not have at communion anyway and so do not drink His blood) Jesus was speaking about hearing and believing His words.
And He is the Word of God and through faith we feed on Him but eating His words and believing them.
.
Brian2 You are so close but missed the mark...
And He is the Word of God and through faith we feed on Him by eating His words and believing them.
Jesus was speaking about hearing and believing His words.

YES Hearing his words and Believing his words.. His words.. "My Flesh is REAL Food"! You lack FAITH!
Brian2 Jesus is; The Word of God! FACT: God cannot lie! Through FAITH we feed on Jesus by BELIEVING his words BELIEVING..>>> Through FAITH.. "The Bread "IS" his body! LOOK..

Brian2 look at this.. John 6 Verse #45....45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’
All between verse # 45 and verse #59 is "GOD TEACHING".....
59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

And He is the Word of God and through faith we feed on Him by eating His FLESH! And believing his WORDS!
Jesus was speaking about hearing and believing His words. HEAR HIS WORDS>. What is Jesus telling you! Christians believe the words of "The Word"!
One more thing.. Catholic DO have communion with wine.... BUT not during "Corvid"! ALSO...... Receiving Jesus in the bread is receiving Jesus! Having Jesus' Blood does not give me any more Jesus!
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
.
Brian2 You are so close but missed the mark...
And He is the Word of God and through faith we feed on Him by eating His words and believing them.
Jesus was speaking about hearing and believing His words.

YES Hearing his words and Believing his words.. His words.. "My Flesh is REAL Food"! You lack FAITH!
Brian2 Jesus is; The Word of God! FACT: God cannot lie! Through FAITH we feed on Jesus by BELIEVING his words BELIEVING..>>> Through FAITH.. "The Bread "IS" his body! LOOK..

John 6:53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
Do you believe this then? Do I have to be a Catholic to have life in me?

.One more thing.. Catholic DO have communion with wine.... BUT not during "Corvid"! ALSO...... Receiving Jesus in the bread is receiving Jesus! Having Jesus' Blood does not give me any more Jesus!

When I was a Catholic there was no wine at Communion except for the priest.
The blood is symbolic of the life of Christ.
If hundreds of years of Catholics did not have the wine they would not have been doing what Jesus said to do if they wanted life.
John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are spirit and life.
I believe that.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Yes I know the Catholic Church does not do that and I don't say that Catholics are not Christians either. I have been a Catholic and would not go back to that however and Protestants aren't invited to share fully in the Mass either,,,,,,,,,,,as if we are not full Christians.
No, it's not the Church saying that. One needs to remember the history of what happened with the splitting away of denominations, most linked to Protestantism, thus it was they who removed themselves from communion with the Church.

However, after Vatican II, the Church took the position that any person who professes Jesus as being their Lord and savior is indeed Christian and that they shouldn't be judged as not being Christian. Even though I only converted to Catholicism when I was 30, I've been attending mass for over 45 years now, and I never have heard a single word by a priest, bishop, or pope that expressed that other Christians are "not true Christians".
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
John 6:53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
Do you believe this then? Do I have to be a Catholic to have life in me?



When I was a Catholic there was no wine at Communion except for the priest.
The blood is symbolic of the life of Christ.
If hundreds of years of Catholics did not have the wine they would not have been doing what Jesus said to do if they wanted life.
John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are spirit and life.
I believe that.
.
You ask... Do I have to be a Catholic to have life in me? The ONLY place you can receive Jesus is in a Catholic Church; a Priest at the alter makes the change of ordinary bread into the LIVING flesh of Jesus!
FACT: God is SPIRIT! Question how many angels can dance on the head of a pin! It takes FAITH; it is faith that protestants lack! Martin Luther the father of the De-Formation; ate the flesh of Jesus! The Orthodox Church broke away from the Catholic Church in 1054 to this day they eat the flesh of Jesus in the form of bread.. PROVING COMMUNION with God has always happened this way!
Brian2 Try typing "Catholic Answers" wine at communion This is an excerpt
There is no Divine precept binding the laity or non-celebrating priests to receive the sacrament under both kinds (Trent, Sess. XXI, c. i). (c) By reason of the hypostatic union and of the indivisibility of His glorified humanity, Christ is really present and is received whole and entire, body and blood, soul and Divinity, under either species alone; nor, as regards the fruits of the sacrament, is the communicant under one kind deprived of any grace necessary for salvation (Trent, Sess. XXI, c. iii). (d) In reference to the sacraments generally, apart from their substance, salva eorum substantia, i.e. apart from what has been strictly determined by Divine institution or precept, the Church has authority to determine or modify the rites and usages employed in their administration, according as she judges it expedient for the greater profit of the recipients or the better protection of the sacraments themselves against irreverence. Hence “although the usage of Communion under two kinds was not infrequent in the early ages [ab initio] of the Christian religion, yet, the custom in this respect having changed almost universally [latissime] in the course of time, holy mother the Church, mindful of her authority in the administration of the Sacraments, and influenced by weighty and just reasons, has approved the custom of communicating under one kind, and decreed it to have the force of a law, which may not be set aside or changed but by the Church‘s own authority” (Trent, Sess. XXI, c. ii).

Brian2 Yes, the words are spirit and life. QUESTION What are the words of God saying!? From John 1 to John 5 Jesus points out the importance of believing his words... Peppered in all of these chapters is the IMPORTANCE of believing the words of Jesus!
"The word became flesh!"
John 2:22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.
John 3:16 .... whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
&
32 He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. 33 Whoever has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. 34 For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit. 35 The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

John 4:42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.
John 5:45 “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?

THEN...
Brian2
then in John 6 it changes from it is important to believe the words of Jesus to.. "Believe this"!
 
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