Jesus as Christ

[ElishaElijah]

Where did Jesus make the assertion that he was God dwelling on earth?
Jesus never claimed to be God, Christians claimed he was God.

Yes He did, all through the whole Bible Jesus is God the Son.

 

[Trailblazer]

He said he and the father were one.

I believe that “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that Jesus and God are one and the same, so whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings, are identical with the Will of the Father. Jesus and God also share the same Holy Spirit, so in that sense they are one and the same. Jesus was a mirror image of God but an image is not the same as what it reflects.

Jesus also shared some of the Attributes of God including Good, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Righteous, Forgiving, Patient, so in that sense they are one and the same. However, Jesus did not share all the Attributes of God so that means that Jesus was not God. The Attributes that are unique to God are Eternal, Holy, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, Sovereign, and Immaterial, nobody except God can have those Attributes.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes He did, all through the whole Bible Jesus is God the Son.

God is the Father and Jesus is the Son. The Son is not God, the Son is the Son of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

John 5:18. 'Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.'

So Jesus was claiming equality with the Father.

Saying that God was His Father does not make Jesus equal to His Father. Jews 'mistakenly' believed that Jesus was claiming to be God but Jesus never claimed that.

The verse that follows shows that Jesus was not claiming to be God because Jesus differentiated Himself from God the Father:

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why do theists insist on saying a supernatural exists when there is no way to observe it?

Why do atheists say that the supernatural does not exist just because they cannot observe it?

 

[Polymath257]

Why do atheists say that the supernatural does not exist just because they cannot observe it?

Because observation is how you know whether something exists or not.

It isn't just that the supernatural hasn't *yet* been observed. It is, for many, that it *cannot* be observed.

That is indistinguishable from non-existence.

 

[Trailblazer]

Where did he do that? He accepted worship as God. That was blasphemy if he was not God.

Jesus did not accept worship as God.

Matthew 4

8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Jesus did not say: Thou shalt worship Me, and me only shalt thou serve.

 

[Trailblazer]

There are five versions of Jesus in the NT ─ Paul's, and those of the authors of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John.

First, each of them states that he is NOT God ─

(Paul) Philippians 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

(Paul) 1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Mark 12: 29 Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one;” ... 32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;

Matthew 20:23 “to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”

Luke 18:19 “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

John 5:19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”

John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own authority; [...] I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”

John 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me”

John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

John 10:29 “My Father [...] is greater than all”.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:10 “The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”

John 14:28 You heard me say to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.

John 16:23 In that day you will ask nothing of me. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask anything of the Father, he will give it to you in my name.

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

1 John 4:12 No man has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.​

(To tidy that up, it's often claimed that in John 8:58 Jesus' Before Abraham was I am is a claim to be God. However, the Jesuses of Paul and of John (unlike the synoptic Jesuses) are the gnostic demiurge, and each has pre-existed in heaven with God and created the material universe eg Paul 1 Corinthians 8:6 above, John 1:3) which is what the statement refers to.

And it's often claimed that when John 10:30 Jesus says "The Father and I are one" he's claiming to be God. However, what he means is explained in John 17:20-23, that he is one with God in a manner that any believer can be one with God.)

Second, Jesus prays to God in all four gospels, and if Jesus is God then the Jesuses of Mark and of Luke say on the cross, "Me, me, why have I forsaken me?". There are other silly consequences to the claim as well.

Third, the Trinity doctrine wasn't invented till the fourth century CE. The gospel authors had never heard of it and its concepts are not found in the NT. And the Trinity doctrine is admitted by the churches to be incoherent ─ "a mystery in the strict sense" ─ which is no winning credential.

I also have a list of verses that show that Jesus is not God but your list is a lot better than my list.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Jesus did not accept worship as God.

Matthew 4

8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Jesus did not say: Thou shalt worship Me, and me only shalt thou serve.

As soon as the Magi laid eyes on the infant Christ, “they bowed down and worshiped Him” (Matthew 2:11).

So they took branches of palm trees and went out to meet him, crying out, ‘Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, even the King of Israel!’” (Matthew 21:9; John 12:13) The word hosanna is a plea for salvation and an expression of adoration. This word used by the crowd is a form of worship.

Those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, ‘Truly you are the Son of God’” (Matthew 14:33

When they realized it was He, they “came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him” (Matthew 28:9).
Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’” (John 20:28). In none of these instances do we see Jesus telling those worshiping Him to stop.

He is worthy of our worship also.

 

[Trailblazer]

If a messenger is not pointing to Jesus Christ, who are they pointing to?

God.

 

[Trailblazer]

The orthodox Christian believes that Jesus Christ (during ministry) was fully God and fully man. Only through this belief is it possible to explain ALL of scripture. Any other approach leaves one cherry-picking scripture. IMO.

But no scripture says that Jesus was fully God and fully man. That is a man-made Christian doctrine.

God conferred upon the Jesus a spiritual nature that no other humans possess. Jesus was not just a man and Jesus was not God. Jesus had a twofold nature, so he was a God-man. This belief makes it possible to explain ALL of scripture.

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself...... The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67

 

[Trailblazer]

Let's look at the alternatives before us:
1. Jesus is Man only
2. Jesus is God only
3. Jesus is God-Man

I take it from your post that you believe No.1. Is that correct?

I vote for #3.

 

[Trailblazer]

Because observation is how you know whether something exists or not.

That is not the ONLY way you can know if something exists:

There are only four accepted methods of comprehension—that is to say, the realities of things are understood by these four methods.

The first method is by the senses—that is to say, all that the eye, the ear, the taste, the smell, the touch perceive is understood by this method. Today this method is considered the most perfect by all the European philosophers: they say that the principal method of gaining knowledge is through the senses; they consider it supreme, although it is imperfect, for it commits errors. For example, the greatest of the senses is the power of sight. The sight sees the mirage as water, and it sees images reflected in mirrors as real and existent; large bodies which are distant appear to be small, and a whirling point appears as a circle. The sight believes the earth to be motionless and sees the sun in motion, and in many similar cases it makes mistakes. Therefore, we cannot trust it.

The second is the method of reason, which was that of the ancient philosophers, the pillars of wisdom; this is the method of the understanding. They proved things by reason and held firmly to logical proofs; all their arguments are arguments of reason. Notwithstanding this, they differed greatly, and their opinions were contradictory. They even changed their views—that is to say, during twenty years they would prove the existence of a thing by logical arguments, and afterward they would deny it by logical arguments—so much so that Plato at first logically proved the immobility of the earth and the movement of the sun; later by logical arguments he proved that the sun was the stationary center, and that the earth was moving. Afterward the Ptolemaic theory was spread abroad, and the idea of Plato was entirely forgotten, until at last a new observer again called it to life. Thus all the mathematicians disagreed, although they relied upon arguments of reason. In the same way, by logical arguments, they would prove a problem at a certain time, then afterward by arguments of the same nature they would deny it. So one of the philosophers would firmly uphold a theory for a time with strong arguments and proofs to support it, which afterward he would retract and contradict by arguments of reason. Therefore, it is evident that the method of reason is not perfect, for the differences of the ancient philosophers, the want of stability and the variations of their opinions, prove this. For if it were perfect, all ought to be united in their ideas and agreed in their opinions.

The third method of understanding is by tradition—that is, through the text of the Holy Scriptures—for people say, “In the Old and New Testaments, God spoke thus.” This method equally is not perfect, because the traditions are understood by the reason. As the reason itself is liable to err, how can it be said that in interpreting the meaning of the traditions it will not err, for it is possible for it to make mistakes, and certainty cannot be attained. This is the method of the religious leaders; whatever they understand and comprehend from the text of the books is that which their reason understands from the text, and not necessarily the real truth; for the reason is like a balance, and the meanings contained in the text of the Holy Books are like the thing which is weighed. If the balance is untrue, how can the weight be ascertained?

Know then: that which is in the hands of people, that which they believe, is liable to error. For, in proving or disproving a thing, if a proof is brought forward which is taken from the evidence of our senses, this method, as has become evident, is not perfect; if the proofs are intellectual, the same is true; or if they are traditional, such proofs also are not perfect. Therefore, there is no standard in the hands of people upon which we can rely.

But the bounty of the Holy Spirit gives the true method of comprehension which is infallible and indubitable. This is through the help of the Holy Spirit which comes to man, and this is the condition in which certainty can alone be attained.
Some Answered Questions, pp. 297-299

83: THE FOUR METHODS OF ACQUIRING KNOWLEDGE

It isn't just that the supernatural hasn't *yet* been observed. It is, for many, that it *cannot* be observed.

That is indistinguishable from non-existence.

That is illogical because:

(1) observation is not the only way of knowing (see above) and
(2) only what exists in the physical world can be observed. God does not exist in the physical world therefore God cannot be observed.

 

[Trailblazer]

As soon as the Magi laid eyes on the infant Christ, “they bowed down and worshiped Him” (Matthew 2:11).

So they took branches of palm trees and went out to meet him, crying out, ‘Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, even the King of Israel!’” (Matthew 21:9; John 12:13) The word hosanna is a plea for salvation and an expression of adoration. This word used by the crowd is a form of worship.

Those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, ‘Truly you are the Son of God’” (Matthew 14:33

When they realized it was He, they “came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him” (Matthew 28:9).
Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’” (John 20:28). In none of these instances do we see Jesus telling those worshiping Him to stop.

He is worthy of our worship also.

Just because some people worshiped Jesus that does not mean that Jesus wanted to be worshiped. Jesus did not consider Himself equal to God and He did not want anyone to worship Him. He wanted people to worship God.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What reasons do you have for NOT believing that Jesus lived as God amongst men on earth?

What reasons do you have for BELIEVING that Jesus lived as God amongst men on earth?

The Tanakh states on three occasions that God is not a man. Obviously this MUST be a very very important point about the nature of God, in order to be stated three times.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent

1 Samuel 15:29 He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a human being, that he should change his mind.”

Job 9:32
For he is not a man, as I am, that I might answer him, that we should come to trial together.

 

[DNB]

If you do not believe that Jesus Christ came from God then you are not a Christian!

The orthodox Christian believes that Jesus Christ (during ministry) was fully God and fully man. Only through this belief is it possible to explain ALL of scripture. Any other approach leaves one cherry-picking scripture. IMO.

John 10:33-36 shows us that people with God's spirit in them can be described as 'gods', and that Jesus claimed to be the Son of God. Who is the Son of God, if not the one who faithfully does the works of his Father?

No, if you believe that Jesus is God, then you not only are not a Christian, but a blasphemer.
I just gave you the most fundamental principles in Biblical hermeneutics and exegesis, as to why Jesus cannot be God. And not one of them were you able to address, let alone acknowledge. The trinity or modalism is from the devil.

Your unfounded and wayward misinterpretation of John 10:33-36 entirely reveals an incompetence and bias in your exegesis, and thus, it can only be described as eisegesis.

 

[ElishaElijah]

God is the Father and Jesus is the Son. The Son is not God, the Son is the Son of God.

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God according to the Scriptures.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God according to the Scriptures.

Well it all depends on whom you ask. The old Arian Christians based their beliefs that Jesus was NOT God on the scriptures too.

 

[Trailblazer]

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God according to the Scriptures.

No, they are not God according to the scriptures, they are only God according to the 'man-made' Christian doctrine of the Trinity.
I believe that you have been duped.

 

[blü 2]

If you do not believe that Jesus Christ came from God then you are not a Christian!

That depends on what you mean by "came from God". The Jesus of Paul and the Jesus of John "came from God" because they'd existed in heaven with God and made the material universe. The Jesus of Matthew and the Jesus of Mark "came from God" in the sense that they were the result of divine insemination of a virgin and thus had God's Y-chromosome. But the Jesus of Mark is an ordinary Jew until his baptism. Only then does God adopt him.

The orthodox Christian believes that Jesus Christ (during ministry) was fully God and fully man.

Yes, although as I pointed out in #47, all five versions of Jesus expressly say that's wrong and never claim to be God ─ so orthodoxy makes all five versions of Jesus liars and deceivers.

Only through this belief is it possible to explain ALL of scripture.

Two points. First, no, that belief is an external and late imposition on scripture, and again I cite all five Jesus' express denials that they're God, and the fact that the Trinity doctrine didn't exist till the 4th century CE.

Second, nothing explains "all of scripture" because the Tanakh and the NT are two sets of writings written at different times by different authors for different purposes, and accordingly contain a great many contradictions and inconsistencies, both internally and between them.

John 10:33-36 shows us that people with God's spirit in them can be described as 'gods', and that Jesus claimed to be the Son of God. Who is the Son of God, if not the one who faithfully does the works of his Father?

But that's a wholly different thing to being God.