Pretribulation rapture

[Trailblazer]

So did Hitler and so does the Taliban.

Not that kind of a new world order. Why do people assume a new world order has to be like that?

Toward a New World Order?

 

[Trailblazer]

Why do you say we are in the end times?

A Baha’i Perspective on the End of Days

05/20/2011 12:58 pm ET Updated Jul 20, 2011

This Saturday, May 21, 2011, is yet another date in a long list of days on which some have confidently predicted “the end of days” or “judgment day.” We even read reports that a man in New York has disposed of his entire life savings and spent it on advertising billboards announcing this impending doomsday. This has happened many times before. It will happen again.

Inevitably, the fixed date comes and goes. Afterwards, the sun still shines, the birds still sing and many have a good laugh at those who were absolutely convinced they would be taken up in a shower of light while others are “left behind” to suffer eternal wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The Baha’is have an interesting and different take on the end times scenario. Rather than expecting a Hollywood-screenwriter’s dream that will occur within 24 hours, like this coming Saturday, they instead see “the end of days” as the end of one major stage of history and the beginning of a new one. This is harder to sell to Hollywood, but easier to reconcile with basic common sense and a modest understanding of history.

Baha’is believe that this transition is happening right now and that we are living participants in it. Rather than in a 24-hour day, it will occur over a “day” of many generations. The end result will be a global worldwide civilization where the “earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens.” Does this sound crazy? What about trying to tell people in the mid-1840s (a time, incidentally, when 100,000 “Millerites” across the United States expected that the “end of days” would occur) that within just 160 years we would have been to the moon and back, and that a man whose father was from Kenya would be the President of the United States.

The bottom line: I confidently predict that we will all still be here on May 22, 2011. I am also confident that our descendants will still be here on May 22, 2111. And by then, the world will look even more like this visionary picture of the future outlined in 1936 by the head of the Baha’i Faith at that time.

When the sun rises this Sunday, and you hear the melodious sounds of birds outside, would it not be inspiring to awaken with a conviction that we had all been “left behind” to build a world civilization, reflecting heaven on earth, day by day, heart to heart and generation to generation?

A Baha'i Perspective on the End of Days | HuffPost

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I know it looks like that way now, but I see glimmers of hope as people are becoming less selfish, little by little.
I believe things will change eventually but it won't happen overnight as humanity certainly did not get the way they are now overnight.

Call me overly optimistic, but I believe that a new race of men will emerge in the future. Did not the Bible promise something like that that?

New Race of Men

I appreciate your reply.

You said “I see glimmers of hope as people are becoming less selfish, little by little.”
Really? I don’t see that. I mean, we (my wife and I) watch the nightly news, and it seems just the opposite. But not always; they do broadcast some human interest stories occasionally.
Did you see the story & video where the old couple in their ‘90’s were pulled out of their burning car? Those young guys took a risk. That was great!
Unfortunately, such selflessness seems to be the exception to the rule.

You may remember, idk, we are Jehovah’s Witnesses; and we think the Last Days began in 1914…Jesus indicated those Days would last a while, when he stated the wars, pestilences, famines, etc, were “a beginning of distress.” (Matthew 24 4-8.) Vs 12 is where Jesus said that due to the increase of crime, people’s
love would “grow cold.” It used to be, if someone was on the side of the road, w/ their car broken down, some person would come by & ready to help. Nowadays, not so much. People are more leary of others now.

Anyways, when we (JW’s) speak of the Last Days, we’re comparing the pre-1914 world, with today.

Do you remember that list of quotes from articles I posted, of historians, world leaders, etc, comparing the present world w/ that from before 1914? The observations were Startling!

Take care.

 

[Kenny]

False. The tribulation is the tribulation of the church. They that endure to the end will be saved.

I don't think so. The bowls, trumpets et al is against the world although Christians will also go through it.

 

[osgart]

Look around, watch the TV news, we are already IN the end times, have been for some time.
The end times is the end of an age and the beginning of a new age, not the end of the world.
I don't look forward to the end of the world but I do look forward to the beginning of a new world order.

Yikes a new world order! That would be the most oppressive rule in history. The fallibility of mankind is a constant in the universe. Always has been.

Do you think human hearts and minds will suddenly change and everyone will embrace everyone else? I think RF is a place of constant criticism. People are as intolerant as ever.

 

[Moonjuice]

Not that kind of a new world order. Why do people assume a new world order has to be like that?

Toward a New World Order?

Anytime you hear someone talking about the entire world operating under a global system of government with wealth distribution, it sounds like communism. That's probably why.

If you can remove poverty and hunger from the world, that would be awesome. But you will never get rid of the human ego. Not as long as there are people on this planet that want more power, control, wealth and will do anything to protect it. This is the reason why hunger still exists...because the wealth hoarders care more about getting more than they do about solving world poverty and hunger with their wealth.

 

[Trailblazer]

You said “I see glimmers of hope as people are becoming less selfish, little by little.”
Really? I don’t see that. I mean, we (my wife and I) watch the nightly news, and it seems just the opposite. But not always; they do broadcast some human interest stories occasionally.
Did you see the story & video where the old couple in their ‘90’s were pulled out of their burning car? Those young guys took a risk. That was great!
Unfortunately, such selflessness seems to be the exception to the rule.

That kind of selflessness might not be the rule, but I think that people are moving in the direction of caring about their fellow man. I just heard on the news yesterday that two thirds of Americans want to take in the Afghan refugees. I cannot believe that would have been the consensus 50 years ago, as I think was noted on the news clip.

Anyways, when we (JW’s) speak of the Last Days, we’re comparing the pre-1914 world, with today.

Do you remember that list of quotes from articles I posted, of historians, world leaders, etc, comparing the present world w/ that from before 1914? The observations were Startling!

When Baha'is speak of the Last Days, we’re comparing the pre-1844 world, with today. I do not know what constitutes the line of demarcation is for JW's, but for Baha'is the line of demarcation was the coming of the Bab in 1844. We believe that He was the Door or the Gate that prepared the was for the Coming of Baha'u'llah who declared His mission in 1863. The Bab was to Baha'u'llah kind of like John the Baptist was to Jesus, a forerunner.

Yes, I can believe that a lot has happened since 1914 and that was a kind of turning point in history. Unfortunately, history was never my best subject in school although I now find it much more interesting.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yikes a new world order! That would be the most oppressive rule in history.

I guess people think if the new world order that way because they are associating it with an oppressive group of people taking over the world, but that is not what the Baha'i vision is at all.

"The Baha’i concept of that new world order has two main goals: The spiritual transformation of the human race and the renewal of culture and civilization.

The spiritual transformation goal describes a divinely-ordained process that marks “the healing of the nations” and “the spiritualization of the masses” and stands identified with the “coming of age of the entire human race” and the long-awaited establishment of the kingdom of God on Earth.

The second goal—the renewal of human culture and civilization—describes the consummation of our historical development, which will result in profound changes in the social and political life of the world. The renewal of culture and civilization, Baha’is believe, must inevitably reach a fitting climax by the adoption of a universal framework for world unity and peace, and the establishment of a global system of governance based on principles of ethics, justice, and democratic representation of all peoples and nations of the world"

Read more: What Will the New World Order Look Like?

The fallibility of mankind is a constant in the universe. Always has been.

Do you think human hearts and minds will suddenly change and everyone will embrace everyone else? I think RF is a place of constant criticism. People are as intolerant as ever.

Mankind will always be fallible but that does not mean man cannot progress.
I think people are becoming more tolerant in general, even on RF! Just in the last four years tat I have been here I have noticed that.

I think this will happen but it certainly won't happen suddenly. Has mankind ever changed that dramatically in a short period of time? No, I think it will happen over the course of a long time, as humans evolve spiritually.

 

[Trailblazer]

Anytime you hear someone talking about the entire world operating under a global system of government with wealth distribution, it sounds like communism. That's probably why.

If you can remove poverty and hunger from the world, that would be awesome. But you will never get rid of the human ego. Not as long as there are people on this planet that want more power, control, wealth and will do anything to protect it. This is the reason why hunger still exists...because the wealth hoarders care more about getting more than they do about solving world poverty and hunger with their wealth.

It might 'sound' like that but that is not what Baha'is mean when we talk about a new world order as I just posted to osgart.
#48 Trailblazer, 5 minutes ago

Part of this new world order will be the elimination of the extremes of wealth and poverty and the elimination of hunger from the world. No, we can never get rid of the human ego, but I believe that eventually it will be subjugated for the good of the whole unlike we see in today's world. Of course, as a Baha'i who believes in God, I believe this will involve the spiritualization of mankind and I believe that by the time this happens everyone will really believe in God, not just go through the motions as we see now. They will put God and others first and their own desires will be secondary.

Nobody can envision what a world like that will be like unless they have the same vision as Baha'is. I had that vision when I became a Baha'i over 50 years ago back during the hippie era when young people were more idealistic. Sadly, the electronic age came and now people are even more materialistic now than ever before.

 

[Father Heathen]

It doesn't really have much Biblical basis, it's mostly an American Evangelical Protestant thing, it isn't understood or known in older forms of Christianity, and it doesn't have much a presence or mentioning before the 19th century.

I.E. an asspull.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I.E. an asspull.

It's basically a smaller piece of the Second American Revival that planted the seeds of contemporary Evangelism. The idea the Bible is the only book one really needs in life and a non-critical "plain reading" of it also come from then.

 

[74x12]

I don't think so. The bowls, trumpets et al is against the world although Christians will also go through it.

I agree with that but we're talking about the "great tribulation". I think the great tribulation of the church is from Satan like in Revelation 12:17, Matthew 24:21, Revelation 7:14. The wrath of God on the world and the kingdom of the beast seems to be a response to Satan's war on the church like how the plagues of Egypt were a response to Pharaoh's persecution of the children of Israel. Many of the plagues of Revelation are even similar to the ones on Egypt. In Egypt they had frogs, in Revelation they have unclean spirits like frogs. In Egypt they have locusts, in Revelation they have spirits with Apollyon like locusts and there are others like water turning to blood.

According to 1 Corinthians 15:52 the resurrection of the just (and the rapture as well) doesn't take place until the "last trump" is sounded. So that would be the 7th trumpet. This is when i believe the return of Jesus Christ will take place.

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

True or false?

False. Rapture theology is a not very biblical. A few verses taken out of context and fanciful exaggerations to grab ones attention.

Jesus will come to earth and end history (as king with the iron rod). The cycle of history is spoken as beasts. The final beast is the false prophet which has horns of a lamb and arises from the earth - all symbolic of the faithful Christians. Thus, the last hegemon is Pax Americana which now heads western Christian civilaization. The Book of Revelation is in the format of a prophecy, but instead of a chapter it is a book. Chapters 2-3 identify that which the oracle is against - the 7 churches which do not exist (as bishoprics). These churches are archetypes of Christendom as they are associated with 7 angels and 7 candles before God.

The rapture is the misinterpretation of the joy at seeing God's will being done on earth as it is in heaven.

 

[Truthseeker]

It might 'sound' like that but that is not what Baha'is mean when we talk about a new world order as I just posted to osgart.
#48 Trailblazer, 5 minutes ago

Part of this new world order will be the elimination of the extremes of wealth and poverty and the elimination of hunger from the world. No, we can never get rid of the human ego, but I believe that eventually it will be subjugated for the good of the whole unlike we see in today's world. Of course, as a Baha'i who believes in God, I believe this will involve the spiritualization of mankind and I believe that by the time this happens everyone will really believe in God, not just go through the motions as we see now. They will put God and others first and their own desires will be secondary.

Nobody can envision what a world like that will be like unless they have the same vision as Baha'is. I had that vision when I became a Baha'i over 50 years ago back during the hippie era when young people were more idealistic. Sadly, the electronic age came and now people are even more materialistic now than ever before.

I don't like that song. Call me prejudiced but I don't like "no religion, too". That would never work. I also always thought John was arrogant.

 

[Truthseeker]

Anytime you hear someone talking about the entire world operating under a global system of government with wealth distribution, it sounds like communism. That's probably why.

To some maybe, but we are just talking eliminating the extremes of wealth and poverty.

If you can remove poverty and hunger from the world, that would be awesome. But you will never get rid of the human ego. Not as long as there are people on this planet that want more power, control, wealth and will do anything to protect it. This is the reason why hunger still exists...because the wealth hoarders care more about getting more than they do about solving world poverty and hunger with their wealth.

We don't think it will always be like that. Also , look around, there have always been some rich that help the world with their wealth. There will also will be a reckoning, the world will crash around them, around all of us, really. This situation can't continue like this, the gap in wealth causes instability in the world, in nations. The resources of the world can't sustain how things are going.

 

[Truthseeker]

A Baha’i Perspective on the End of Days

05/20/2011 12:58 pm ET Updated Jul 20, 2011

This Saturday, May 21, 2011, is yet another date in a long list of days on which some have confidently predicted “the end of days” or “judgment day.” We even read reports that a man in New York has disposed of his entire life savings and spent it on advertising billboards announcing this impending doomsday. This has happened many times before. It will happen again.

Inevitably, the fixed date comes and goes. Afterwards, the sun still shines, the birds still sing and many have a good laugh at those who were absolutely convinced they would be taken up in a shower of light while others are “left behind” to suffer eternal wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The Baha’is have an interesting and different take on the end times scenario. Rather than expecting a Hollywood-screenwriter’s dream that will occur within 24 hours, like this coming Saturday, they instead see “the end of days” as the end of one major stage of history and the beginning of a new one. This is harder to sell to Hollywood, but easier to reconcile with basic common sense and a modest understanding of history.

Baha’is believe that this transition is happening right now and that we are living participants in it. Rather than in a 24-hour day, it will occur over a “day” of many generations. The end result will be a global worldwide civilization where the “earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens.” Does this sound crazy? What about trying to tell people in the mid-1840s (a time, incidentally, when 100,000 “Millerites” across the United States expected that the “end of days” would occur) that within just 160 years we would have been to the moon and back, and that a man whose father was from Kenya would be the President of the United States.

The bottom line: I confidently predict that we will all still be here on May 22, 2011. I am also confident that our descendants will still be here on May 22, 2111. And by then, the world will look even more like this visionary picture of the future outlined in 1936 by the head of the Baha’i Faith at that time.

When the sun rises this Sunday, and you hear the melodious sounds of birds outside, would it not be inspiring to awaken with a conviction that we had all been “left behind” to build a world civilization, reflecting heaven on earth, day by day, heart to heart and generation to generation?

A Baha'i Perspective on the End of Days | HuffPost

You've really surprised me with the source of your link!

 

[Truthseeker]

Or a Fireside... It is not the Baha'is who need to see it.

Who could I find for a fireside? On second thought, it would be best for devotional.

 

[Brian2]

A Baha’i Perspective on the End of Days

05/20/2011 12:58 pm ET Updated Jul 20, 2011

This Saturday, May 21, 2011, is yet another date in a long list of days on which some have confidently predicted “the end of days” or “judgment day.” We even read reports that a man in New York has disposed of his entire life savings and spent it on advertising billboards announcing this impending doomsday. This has happened many times before. It will happen again.

Inevitably, the fixed date comes and goes. Afterwards, the sun still shines, the birds still sing and many have a good laugh at those who were absolutely convinced they would be taken up in a shower of light while others are “left behind” to suffer eternal wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The Baha’is have an interesting and different take on the end times scenario. Rather than expecting a Hollywood-screenwriter’s dream that will occur within 24 hours, like this coming Saturday, they instead see “the end of days” as the end of one major stage of history and the beginning of a new one. This is harder to sell to Hollywood, but easier to reconcile with basic common sense and a modest understanding of history.

Baha’is believe that this transition is happening right now and that we are living participants in it. Rather than in a 24-hour day, it will occur over a “day” of many generations. The end result will be a global worldwide civilization where the “earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens.” Does this sound crazy? What about trying to tell people in the mid-1840s (a time, incidentally, when 100,000 “Millerites” across the United States expected that the “end of days” would occur) that within just 160 years we would have been to the moon and back, and that a man whose father was from Kenya would be the President of the United States.

The bottom line: I confidently predict that we will all still be here on May 22, 2011. I am also confident that our descendants will still be here on May 22, 2111. And by then, the world will look even more like this visionary picture of the future outlined in 1936 by the head of the Baha’i Faith at that time.

When the sun rises this Sunday, and you hear the melodious sounds of birds outside, would it not be inspiring to awaken with a conviction that we had all been “left behind” to build a world civilization, reflecting heaven on earth, day by day, heart to heart and generation to generation?

A Baha'i Perspective on the End of Days | HuffPost

OK thanks. I still think it is strange to call these the end days of an era when they are actually the beginning (if 160 years still is the beginnings) of an era, and the Bible message is that Jesus will return and the end will come after the end days.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't like that song. Call me prejudiced but I don't like "no religion, too". That would never work. I also always thought John was arrogant.

Does ANYONE wonder why he said "no religion too?" When that song came out 90% of people in the united States were Christian. I think it was a backlash against Christianity and other organized religions.

 

[Trailblazer]

Who could I find for a fireside?

That is rather sad that there would be nobody.