firedragon
Veteran Member
You are absolutely right. There is no evidence for that.
But see, Tu Quoque fallacies are logically fallacious.
Try.
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You are absolutely right. There is no evidence for that.
But see, Tu Quoque fallacies are logically fallacious.
Try.Yes, before Abraham - see Genesis 1:26 because Jesus is part of the US that his God is speaking to Jesus.
Yes, Jesus is Mighty God but Not addressed as Almighty God.
God and Lord are titles. Jesus is Not the KJV LORD of Psalms 110 but the second Lord in lower-case letters.
Yes, Jesus was "in" the beginning but pre-human Jesus was Not ever BEFORE the beginning.
In other words, only God was Before the beginning according to Psalms 90:2
At 1st Cor. 8:6 uses the conjunction word 'and '.
In English class we were taught the word ' and ' would mean between two persons.
Yes, God created ' through ' pre-human heavenly Jesus. - Revelation 4:11
Please notice before verse 28 what Jesus already said at John 20:17 B______________
Please also notice what Jesus prayed at John 17:11; John 17:21-23 that his followers be ONE just as he and his Father are one. Surely Jesus was Not praying his followers become God.
So, John 10:30 fits -> John 10:38; John 17:11; John 17:20-23 from Psalms 82:1-7.
Jesus never claimed to be God at John 10:33 that is what his enemies were saying.
So, their accusation was because Jesus is saying that he has powers that the Jews believe belong to God alone.
Those Jews overlooked the fact that Jesus openly admitted he received his authority from his Father.
Yes, Jesus is firstborn of all creation - Genesis 1:26 - God was Never born but is the uncreated Creator.
At John 14:9 we see a response at John 5:19 that Jesus can Not do a single thing of his own initiative......
No one can see God and live - Exodus 33:20 - people saw Jesus and lived.
If Jesus was God then people who saw Jesus would have died because they say Jesus/God.
No person has seen God at any time according to John at John 1:18.
So, at John 14:9 is speaking of seeing but Not with one's physical eyes but the eyes of the heart - Ephesians 1:18.
Sometimes we hear the expression ' a chip off the old block ' and we know the son is not the father but so closely resembles or represents his father in words and works that people say the son is a ' chip off the old block '.
The son so admires his father's ways that he wants to imitate his father
Jesus did nothing of his own originality - John 10:37-38; John 12:50; John 14:10-11; John 14:24.
PureX
Veteran Member
No, all I will "witness" is an effect of it, through my limited and subjective human perspective.
The ^ above ^ sounds to me as if you are saying Abrahamic religions should talk about lies.
Why else would a person belong to a religion unless they thought it is religious truth.
Jesus believed that Scripture is 'religious truth' as per John 17:17.
That is why Jesus used logical reasoning on the old Hebrew Scriptures on which to base his teachings.
Jesus often prefaced his statements with the words, "it is written..." meaning already written down in the OT.
PureX
Veteran Member
Either you're trying too hard not to understand, or you're incapable of understanding. Either way I don't see any future for this conversation. The scenario you pose is of a whole array of interactive phenomena, of which our minds will cognate (identify, conceptualize, and evaluate) as best it can, very quickly, and react as it imagines is in it's best interest. And that, too, is part of the array of phenomena occurring. "Objectivity" really has nothing to do with it. We are the subjects, cognating and reacting according to our own limited natures (subjectively), as we are able. I don't see why you're having so much trouble understanding this, and accepting it.
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Speak for yourself, I haven't seen any real miracles.
I'd like proof that a sincere person praying could walk around inside a fiery furnace unharmed when tied up and tossed into a fiery furnace such as was done by Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego in the Old Testament, and the proof would be repeatability of the miracle.
In fact we have contrary evidence because God would not even save the sincere Jehovah's Witnesses from relatively minor burns induced by electric shock of a stun gun in Russia;
'Electrocuted' for being a Jehovah's Witness
That is only true of minor miracles, major miracles such as flooding the entire surface of the earth or pulling two million slaves out of Egypt and wandering the dessert for 40 years should leave substantial evidence.
Also even if you couldn't prove that you actually ate lettuce, it falls within the realm of possibility - you could eat lettuce today to prove that it is possible to eat lettuce.
That is just the sciptures making up excuses for Jesus inability to provide a sign.
Based on their non-repeatability, and based on the fact that the Gospel's miracle claims were written by Christian ministers, and as you so aptly put it, '"Christian" ministers lie all the time'.
But you said above that miracles can't be proven later, 'Asking someone who lived centuries after the event to provide proof is... ...ridiculous'
So I ask you again, what miracles were later proven to be true?
I think there is a much greater degree of agreement than what you appear to be implying here.I have heard the "experts" opinions. What of them? Others have opinions that differ to theirs, and even those that agree, can't agree. So what of it?
'Like the rest of the New Testament, the four gospels were written in Greek.[30] The Gospel of Mark probably dates from c. AD 66–70,[9] Matthew and Luke around AD 85–90,[10] and John AD 90–110.[11] Despite the traditional ascriptions, all four are anonymous and most scholars agree that none were written by eyewitnesses.[12]'
Soource: Gospel - Wikipedia
The authors of the Gospels where Christian ministers, and the authors of the Old Testament - the Jewish Scribes were not more honest than the Christian ministers as far as I can tell.
Evidently. You said the Jews were wayward, a stiff necked lot, corrupt. All of that is attacking the source of the argument that Jesus was not a scriptural authority. It is ad-hominem. Even if the Jews were wayward stiffnecked corrupt people if they say the grass is green the grass is green. Likewise if they say that Jesus was not a scriptural authority it is true regardless of the source it came from.
No it doesn't, the vastly overwhelming majority of Jews who were learned in the scriptures did not and have not accepted Jesus. Whilst one would expect those alive in Jesus day and having to relinguish their power to Jesus would have motive to deny His scriptural authority, there is excellent money to be made as a Christian minister today, and the material motives are heavily in favour of conversion to Christianity. In spite of this learned and financially prosperous Jews continue to reject Jesus, which suggests that Jesus is not a scriptural authority in terms of the Old testament.
Well those who as you so aptly put it "lie all the time." certainly have their bias for insisting Jesus was an Old Testament scriptural authority in spite of Jesus lack of success in gaining any authority from scripturally well informed financially well off Jews. But I'm open to correction, if you have a list of Jewish ministers who were well off prior to converting to the Jehovah's witnesses or any other branch of Christianity (and no messianic Jews and other non-Jews who take the name Jew incorrectly but fall under Christianity don't count)Do you see how it goes with evidence? Peple interpret it differently, and we cannot rule out bias in some cases. So where does that leave us, on this argument? Going anywhere?
Ok, so since the origins of life have already allegedly been created by God the design already exists, so humans do not have to create life, they can simply make it
So you are quoting a Jehovah's witness publication which claims cells etc have a "life force" and I'm presumably expected to take such circular reasoning as evidence?
I don't think it is a myth. Self replicating molecules have been observed;
'‘We are able to observe behaviour in not-yet-living systems of self-replicating molecules that start to show strong similarities with what we see in biology,’ says project coordinator Sijbren Otto, Professor of Systems Chemistry at the University of Groningen'
Source: CORDIS | European Commission
Is it not logical that if there are self replicating molecules there could have been a first self replicating molecule?
In my opinion
No evolution is not magic. It is actually quite a natural process. Genes attempt to copy themselves and make copying errors, some of those errors result in beneficial mutations which help the survivability and/or reproducability of the individual with the mutation causing the mutation to become more common in the gene pool, and over a period of time these mutations add up to large changes. No magic required.
In my opinion.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
As if OT is any God's own truth.
If you yourself agree that there is no evidence, then it is not 'Tu quoque' fallacy. In that case, I do not have to prove anything and there is nothing more to discuss.There is no evidence for that.
But see, Tu Quoque fallacies are logically fallacious.
Which, IMHO, they do, quite smartly and extensively on internet and among gatherings of people. One can't sell snake-oil without props and blurbs.
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rational experiences
Veteran Member
Humans state I use words. Words own status and statements.
The state I meant.
So words we use to enforce and teach to indoctrinate human babies.
My brother's just human say I use the word as origin to own a status meant as origin.
Humans quote the origin itself. As a word description only.
Meaning "the" origin.
First of all no words would exist.
First of all no human thinking would exist.
First of all whatever was origin can no longet be origin as humans claim the origin changed.
Change and then evolved cooled change is all that exists.
We don't own the explanation changed origin or evolved cooled of change.
As our life form is human.
So humans say my origins were changed also as I am no longer the origin first human form and God did it.
First human as life itself before was sacrificed and died says a human teaching.
Claiming that human status with God O the earth...stone a heavens the planet. Once before when life had first begun as first life on earth. Gone.
The origin form God says human is gone so is origin human life.
We are a returned second form of human life.
Ignored as a human teaching once earth God science had destroyed all life on earth. The origin of science.
Then Moses copying human first science rebuilt old science irradiated mutated life. After the ice age.
As we know nature procreated the species as sex acts. Continuance itself as nature also dies constantly.
Dinosaurs having sex produced dinosaurs.
So we said God the planet then ended the life of dinosaurs and a newly born body ice renewing it's body every end of year had returned human life from its previous total destruction.
Ashes to ashes.
Dust to dust.
Told the story ourselves.
Nature still existed after the thaw ice age.
We cannot come from out of the body ice. The saviour.
CH gases were in the heavens already as gases.
So where did we come from?
The origin body says humans.
And the word we used to explain the state was the eternal. Meaning it had always existed as the origin form.
Creation does not own the status origin nor eternal.
Science says space is nothing empty.
Space also owns all radiating masses being any formed body in its emptiness.
Now if you want to quote memory told me why first life was destroyed yet everyones first life is deceased then you have to ask how and why.
Recording in heavens by voice image said so. Human.
The heavens hence owned the state to record.
In recording we can view the whole planet as fed back image proving records do not own held mass form.
Why machines as mass can use transmitting images gained and sent in machines.
As the state recording was encoded by physical mass. Physical mass that had gone converted and was now nothing. Ended.
Once mass is gone it becomes the informed state of nothing.
Nothing hence now owns the records. Just as a status informed. As nothing itself cannot record. What is gone encoded the status to record.
And you cannot move past or become anything else once recorded.
What the heavens owns. A state.
Therefore if a human says I personally came out of the origin form they meant it and knew they had.
What had always existed and had never changed itself.
The status change means what was changed as a description. So our human eternal form once eternal is now just a human.
Status a portion of. Meaning had been removed from.
If we say God came from the origin its form no longer is an origin.
And gods origin is now only god.
As a humans origin is only hu man.
You cannot own any other origin once the status change says change owns new form a human.
Change is also not God.
Why teaching is what a human says it is. Answers already given by the use of one word which is the answer in human life.
Eternal hence has never changed is the origin.
Origin that changed is no longer an origin.
Origin meaning is only in one place as first form.
The state I meant.
So words we use to enforce and teach to indoctrinate human babies.
My brother's just human say I use the word as origin to own a status meant as origin.
Humans quote the origin itself. As a word description only.
Meaning "the" origin.
First of all no words would exist.
First of all no human thinking would exist.
First of all whatever was origin can no longet be origin as humans claim the origin changed.
Change and then evolved cooled change is all that exists.
We don't own the explanation changed origin or evolved cooled of change.
As our life form is human.
So humans say my origins were changed also as I am no longer the origin first human form and God did it.
First human as life itself before was sacrificed and died says a human teaching.
Claiming that human status with God O the earth...stone a heavens the planet. Once before when life had first begun as first life on earth. Gone.
The origin form God says human is gone so is origin human life.
We are a returned second form of human life.
Ignored as a human teaching once earth God science had destroyed all life on earth. The origin of science.
Then Moses copying human first science rebuilt old science irradiated mutated life. After the ice age.
As we know nature procreated the species as sex acts. Continuance itself as nature also dies constantly.
Dinosaurs having sex produced dinosaurs.
So we said God the planet then ended the life of dinosaurs and a newly born body ice renewing it's body every end of year had returned human life from its previous total destruction.
Ashes to ashes.
Dust to dust.
Told the story ourselves.
Nature still existed after the thaw ice age.
We cannot come from out of the body ice. The saviour.
CH gases were in the heavens already as gases.
So where did we come from?
The origin body says humans.
And the word we used to explain the state was the eternal. Meaning it had always existed as the origin form.
Creation does not own the status origin nor eternal.
Science says space is nothing empty.
Space also owns all radiating masses being any formed body in its emptiness.
Now if you want to quote memory told me why first life was destroyed yet everyones first life is deceased then you have to ask how and why.
Recording in heavens by voice image said so. Human.
The heavens hence owned the state to record.
In recording we can view the whole planet as fed back image proving records do not own held mass form.
Why machines as mass can use transmitting images gained and sent in machines.
As the state recording was encoded by physical mass. Physical mass that had gone converted and was now nothing. Ended.
Once mass is gone it becomes the informed state of nothing.
Nothing hence now owns the records. Just as a status informed. As nothing itself cannot record. What is gone encoded the status to record.
And you cannot move past or become anything else once recorded.
What the heavens owns. A state.
Therefore if a human says I personally came out of the origin form they meant it and knew they had.
What had always existed and had never changed itself.
The status change means what was changed as a description. So our human eternal form once eternal is now just a human.
Status a portion of. Meaning had been removed from.
If we say God came from the origin its form no longer is an origin.
And gods origin is now only god.
As a humans origin is only hu man.
You cannot own any other origin once the status change says change owns new form a human.
Change is also not God.
Why teaching is what a human says it is. Answers already given by the use of one word which is the answer in human life.
Eternal hence has never changed is the origin.
Origin that changed is no longer an origin.
Origin meaning is only in one place as first form.
rational experiences
Veteran Member
A human living as just a human is also a human egotist.
Looks at a natural living healthy monkey first as a human healthy then claims the monkey is by body type a lesser mutated human form by his opinion.
As that is exactly what a human does.
As you do all the comparing by looking. And it is an inference.
Science says they are a human informed by applying the comparisons.
If a human never had sex no idea of a mutated human born would even be seen. Sex by human beings brings forth the expressed mutation.
As natural human DNA becomes defective in atmospheric change.
Science never references the sex act in species development of a species. It is why any living change to any living species is notated today.
As life is right now. Life the topic is not alive living anywhere else. The scientific coercive human condition.
As a human is not an ape. We might live in a body type like an ape yet the ape is its own healthy body type also.
Is actual advice. Compare yourself just to yourself human and be life grateful. Science was never just life grateful it pretended it was a God and the creator as a man.
The theist self.
It is even stated categorically as your own confession. The bible.
What human science said human ancient bones body type seemingly expressed monkey type mutations inherited in the human expressed body.
Said it was human bones.
As human is the highest used status to be informed to a human by a human. Looking at old bones. You don't claim it is an evolved monkey body of bones.
Otherwise you would not announce seems humans lived mutated as a human.
Humans today are living deformed mutated with you right at this moment. Bones deformed the evidence.
If science spoke on behalf of human truth they would say stone earth gods substance is a vital life support for healthy human bones to exist as a substance like God.
As scientific human advice.
If you witness it defining being informed as you irradiate convert stone then you know you are causing it. Why humans said science a man human expression living just like a normal man is our lifes destroyer.
Taught it.
Meant it. Human science chosen. The human topic by humans as chosen.
Gods body earth stone substances changed which caused human natural human dna life who chose it to be converted sacrificed it genetically.
The past human life sacrificed said the Gods of the Egyptians had caused it.
Pyramid temple science false God.
God the earth supported natural life.
A machine is not God. Yet it was built from gods substances. The earth. A machine can do no harm it has to be wielded by a human controller.
Why humans in science then said they had become an all powerful God as they could wield gods power against us.
Radio waves he said are recorded sound waves. Sound caused it. Lied as radiation owning why radio waves existed caused it.
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You'll do a lot more than that. You'll perceive that your foot has suffered an impact injury whose source exists external your self and your body, you'll know that if you dial 911 or its equivalent, real help will come ─ indeed you'll know a great deal of other relevant information about the world external to you, and you'll use it and the resources of the world external to you to solve your problem.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Jesus is God in the flesh.
My point is is that we humans can and do experience a reality in our world and environments that we can sense and understand. We evolved that way. There's a lot of work by theists to separate humans from the very nature that we are part of. We humans have subjective experiences but we can also understand what is objectively true.
My suspicion is that theists don't want to acknowledge that we humans can understand objective reality to leave a mysterious gap in perception that gods can perhaps exist in.
So a truth that you decide is true despite not being able to show any of it is objectively true.
Who told you what Jesus taught is true? Western culture? Your mom and dad?
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A book says he did, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that he didn't do that for you.
All you have to go on is hearsay... no?
Well that doesn't sound too bad. Ordinary mortals will be in agonizing pain and close to passing out. But you're just a dispassionate witness as if it's someone else foot.
Yes, " THROUGH " Jesus. Jesus gives credit to his God as being the Creator at Revelation 4:11
Pre-human heavenly Jesus was before all things because Jesus was God's first creation - Revelation 3:14 B
Dead Jesus did Not resurrect himself according to Luke at Acts of the Apostles.
Resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus did Not appear in front of himself according to Hebrews 9:24.
Even now Jesus still thinks he has a God over him according to John at Revelation 3:12.
Reading and researching the Bible convinces what Jesus taught is true: religious truth.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
If he's before all then he can't be created. It doesn't say he was one of the created things, but that he created all.